All Small Six The 'Ideal' 200 Built By Committee

This relates to all small sixes
1966Mustang

1966Mustang

ALL THE THINGS
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  • I picked up a 1978 200 a while ago, for no other purpose other than I was bored and needed a road-trip to New Jersey.
  • The head has been cleaned and no cracks found. It is sitting on a shelf, partially pocket ported ... (for sale soon)
  • The block has not been inspected yet. It is sitting on an engine stand. Assume it's good and can be bored.
  • Also assume it's going in my 65 Mustang Coupe. My HP goal is... about 400ish
  • Reply with your suggestions/ideas on the Carb/EFI, Ignition, Pistons, Cam, AL Head?, Tranny, Reardiff, Exhaust, Turbo???
  • Upvote the replies you like, downvote the ones you don't (up/down arrows on the right of the replies).
  • Let's have some fun with this!
As 'decisions' are made, they'll be posted here, subject to change.

Added Google Sheet Feb 9, 2020 for P/Ns and Purchasing Dept. Progress...
docs.google.com

200 Built By Committee

BOM Seq,Order By Date,Part Desc,Part Num,Vendor,SuggestedBy,ItemURL,Notes,Contact,Email,QuoteNum,QuoteDate,QtyOrdered,Price,Total,Date Ordered,Date Received,Date Delta Days 10,BLOCK RELATED 10.1,200CID Block D8BE,D8BE,Craigslist...,Craigslist Bought,1,$80.00,$80.00 10.11,3/1/2021,Dual Roller Tim...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

Mostly Decided:
  1. Holley Super Sniper 4150 650HP PART# PART# 550-520 - https://www.holley.com/products/fue...sniper_efi/sniper_4bbl_tbi_kits/parts/550-520
    1. Sniper ignition, etc
  2. VI AL Head #10269 Ported - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/deposit-only-aluminum-head-package
  3. Extended Valve Stems +.30 - re note to Matt @ VI stem add +.30 to length as default
    1. SI
    2. Manley
  4. 1300909705/177210 BW Airwerks Turbo S300SX-E 8378 61.44mm T4 .88 AR Journal bearing
  5. F38-Black-14.5psi - Tial F38 38mm Wastegate Black 14.5psi
  6. QBOV-Black-11psi-AL - Tial Q BOV 50mm 11psi
  7. Camshaft - Solid-Lifter Cam CompCams Card 68362
  8. Lifters - Oil Hole Solid Lifters CompCams SKU 817-12
  9. Roller Rockers - RAU - F-44RA & F-44RRA? - http://rockerarms.com/pages/rollerfordcad.html
  10. Adjustable Timing Gear Set - PART# JPP-200-DRC - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/dual-roller-timing-chain-set-170-200ci
Developing and Can-Do:
  1. Connecting Rods - Pauter Engineering FOR-235-565-1248F
  2. Custom forged 2618 alloy pistons - http://racetecpistons.com/
To be Developed or Figured on:
  1. Equal Length Header/T4 Collector
  2. Harmonic Balancer / Damper
    1. http://www.atiracing.com/contact/contactati.htm
    2. B-H-J - Spoke with Chris, good conversation
    3. Fluidamper contacted - nope
    4. ATI - too much normal stuff to do custom.
  3. Oil Pump
    1. Contacting Pauter on oil pump mods.
    2. 250CID Pump, Adapter and drive from D2S Racing Products Inc. ( @drag-200stang )
  4. Oil Pan
    1. Canton?
    2. Modify stock pan, develop windage kit

Added Jan 29,2021 7PM

Vendors Contacted/Emailed:

Magnum Machine Inc.
https://www.magnummachineincorporated.com
Magnum Machine Inc.
921 Business Park Dr
Chesapeake, VA 23320
Telephone: (757) 424-1440
FAX: (757) 424-6210
Owner says- "No prob, I like the oddball builds"

Rocker Arms Unlimited - https://rockerarms.com
16575 Clear Creek Rd.
Redding, CA. 96001
Tel: 530-242-1316
Fax: 530-242-1332
Email: rockerarms@rockerarms.com
re: @bubba22349 's suggestion on roller rocker availability, made in usa

Pauter Machine - https://pauter.com
Don Pauter
367 Zenith Street
Chula Vista, CA 91911
Tel: 619-422-5384
Fax: 619-422-1924
Email: info@pauter.com
Custom Connecting Rods - FOR-235-565-1248F
And oil pumps...
https://pauter.com/parts/oil-pumps/
contacting about HV 200 oil pump mods.

RaceTec Pistons - https://RaceTecPistons.com
Randy Gillis
15681 Computer Lane
Huntington Beach, Ca 92649
Tel: 714-903-4362
Fax: 714-891-0190

CAA Racing Products/Protohawk (torque-plates/other engineering)
https://www.protohawk.com/ https://ccaracing.com/
Michael Gallo
- offered to sanity check our torque plate. because... no one wants to wreck a chunk of stock :D - which is awfully gracious of the owner.
- Makes insert bushings too: https://ccaracing.com/engine-block-tooling/
 
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If you've noticed, the current mfg's trend is to much smaller displacements with forced induction. BIG difference these days is confidence in Fuel, Ignition and most parameter management through electronic sensor/feedback and even algorithmic control of power application resulting in manageable MTBF.

I would suggest including forced induction in the discussion with other available significant 'modern' improvements.

**********

How much do you want to spend?

Study the empirical data, do the applicable hard math, and then build what you can afford ...

have fun
 
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1966Mustang said:
My HP goal is... as much as possible while being more reliable than new and driveable.
Click to expand...
Adding to what powerband said, you are looking at turbocharging or supercharging.

The cylinder head determines the power limit so the obvious key to this project is a ported VI aluminum head with EFI
That along with turbocharging or supercharging can put you in the 500 HP range.
The short stroke 200 is designed to scream at high rpms. The 500 HP level has a power band between 3500 and 7000 rpm.
With the cam lobe duration in the 230 degree range @ .050" lobe lift and a wide LSA, the engine is still very drivable below 3500.

The use of aftermarket connecting rods is strongly advised.

200ci - Alternative 200 six connecting rod

We had a joint effort looking for an aftermarket rod for the 200 and drag-200stang found that the Toyota 1JZ rod would be a good candidate. 4.931" center to center 2.166" BE bore for the 2.047" crank pin 1.020" BE Width 1.00 PE width. 22mm pin Comes in sets of six.
fordsix.com fordsix.com

You would be looking at custom forged pistons.
 
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Is there any empirical evidence or racers' anecdotes about the failure rate of OEM 200 Connecting Rods?.

> 200 and 250 pistons with 250's ring land blown off, but never had a problem with rods compared to other failures ( too much fun.) .

.

(BTW: Forged Pistons and boost capable are distinctions ...)


have fun
 
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1966Mustang said:
I might know someone at KB-Silv-O-Lite, but who else should I look at? Got any layin' around?
Click to expand...
AFAIK Silv-o-lite only does cast pistons and that is not what you want.

There are two main aluminum alloys for forged pistons. 4032 and 2618

The 4032 alloy forged piston is less expensive than the 2618.
It contains around 12% silicon which controls thermal expansion and gives it good strength at higher temperature.
However the silicon makes the piston more brittle and more susceptible to failure under high impact loads.

The 2618 alloy has very little silicon making it more malleable and will handle high loads better.
Because it has very little silicon it has greater thermal expansion and requires more piston clearance.
It also cost more that the 4032 alloy piston.

The least expensive piston manufacturer for custom pistons of either alloy is Autotec/Racetec and have made many pistons for the Ford sixes
 
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I will order ordered these:

Main Stud Kit:
www.vintageinlines.com

ARP Main Stud Kit (200ci - 7 main) | Vintage Inlines

Main Stud Kit for 200ci motors with 7 mains. The 42 piece set includes washers and nuts. ARP® Bolts and Studs are approximately ten times stronger than OEM fasteners. For most performance applications, studs are recommended over bolts. Studs make it much easier to assembly an engine, assuring...
www.vintageinlines.com www.vintageinlines.com
VI PN: ARP-200-MS7 ARP PN: 152-5401

Cylinder Head Stud Kit:
www.vintageinlines.com

ARP Aluminum Head Studs - Full "A" Kit | Vintage Inlines

Head Stud Kit for all 170/200/250ci motors. The 42 piece set includes studs, washers and nuts. ARP® Bolts and Studs are approximately ten times stronger than OEM fasteners. For most performance applications, studs are recommended over bolts. Studs make it much easier to assembly an engine...
www.vintageinlines.com www.vintageinlines.com
VI PN: ARP-250-ACH
 
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You still need to dummy up the crank and a new piston and rod to confirm you have adequate rod clearance with all obstacles in the path of rotation. Aftermarket rods are generally more beefy and may require minor notching of the cylinder bottoms or pan rail area. Not to mention the cam barrel. So just double check with the new components. It's not uncommon to have to do that.
 
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That is something you have to do physically unfortunately...Its like them saying to cut the block x amount of thousandths to obtain zero deck. You are taking a huge gamble to do it without mocking up and doing it the correct way.
 
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I had a dream last night about cranks and rods... That's probably not healthy.

I am calling the ball.

I'm going to dare to be different, trust in this mostly democratic process and go with specs of our consensus. Cost be damned. I'm calling it at:

Center to Center: 4.915" (stock is 4.715")
Big End Bore: 2.225" (big end bore for SBC 2.100" journal, stock crank is 2.1234)
Pin End Bore: .927" (more plentiful than 'ford' .912)
Big End Width: .992"
Pin End Width: 1.00"
 
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The small end of the rod has a bushing that is a soft bearing for the piston pin to ride on rather than being pressed into the rod like the stock piston pins.
The rod can turn on the pin as well as the pin turning in the piston.
The piston has clips to hold the pin in place.
 
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What's in the VintageInlines ARP Stud Kit?

Here are the AL Cylinder Head Studs, VI PN: ARP-250-ACH
www.vintageinlines.com

ARP Aluminum Head Studs - Full "A" Kit | Vintage Inlines

Head Stud Kit for all 170/200/250ci motors. The 42 piece set includes studs, washers and nuts. ARP® Bolts and Studs are approximately ten times stronger than OEM fasteners. For most performance applications, studs are recommended over bolts. Studs make it much easier to assembly an engine...
www.vintageinlines.com www.vintageinlines.com
View media item 229
Here are the Main Cap Studs, VI PN: ARP-200-MS7
www.vintageinlines.com

ARP Main Stud Kit (200ci - 7 main) | Vintage Inlines

Main Stud Kit for 200ci motors with 7 mains. The 42 piece set includes washers and nuts. ARP® Bolts and Studs are approximately ten times stronger than OEM fasteners. For most performance applications, studs are recommended over bolts. Studs make it much easier to assembly an engine, assuring...
www.vintageinlines.com www.vintageinlines.com
View media item 228
 
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guhfluh said:
This may be too late or may not apply for expense or specific application reasons, but the above response is incorrect.

OEMs have been using blow off valves integral to the compressor housing for around 2 decades and Borg Warner EFR series for around a decade. Arguments have been made the blow off valve should be on the hotside of the intercooler, closer to the turbo.

Most internal gate actuators are adjustable via preload. Spring changing is an option on higher end aftermarket actuators. The aftermarket has come out with dual port, adjustable internal gate actuators. There are adjustable dual port internal gate actuators available specifically for the BW EFR line as well as others.

External gates do not provide adjustable boost control any differently than a comparable internal gate.
Click to expand...
That's all true but I was talking about having control on the fly which involves a two port actuator or wastegate.
I was also comparing active control using dual port versus single port with "Bleed Off" control in which case an external dual port is much safer than a internal single port.

Concerning BOVs I should have worded that statement differently and not used the word "always"
However I prefer the wastegate close to the throttle body when using an intercooler and a manual transmission is order to keep the air mass flowing in the right direction between shifts.
If you have the BOV right after the turbocharger, when the TB closes and the BOV opens the pressure in the intercooler and the pipe between the intercooler and TB can reverse the flow which will cause additional lag after a shift.

This build is using the BW Airwerks turbocharger with an external dual port wastegate.
The wastegate listed above is on the large side. It doesn't have to be larger than 38 to 40 mm
 
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drag-200stang said:
Paul, I too thought that the 60 was to large..My old build and new build is a 38mm ..But I will not be using a quick boost housing or a wife tune..Maybe the next size up if priority flow can not be fitted easily?
Click to expand...
As you may know, the higher the boost level you want to regulate at, the smaller the wastegate port size is needed.
That's because you dump less exhaust to get higher boost.
Also If you go to a larger turbine housing with a higher A/R that means you intend to run more exhaust through the turbine and less through the wastegate.

Would you post or PM me about your new build.
I would like to see what you are doing
Thanks
 
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The crank can be balanced without the rods and pistons being present. They are balanced separately. Make sure to take your harmonic balancer and flywheel/flexplate as well as pressure plate if its straight shift.

Usually when regrinding the journals to a custom size like that, the machine shop likes to torque the rod bearings in the new rods and grind each rod journal specifically to each rod. Same thing for finish honing the block, they like to mic each piston and hone each cylinder to a specific piston and mark them for the cylinders they will go in, if there is any variation in them.
 
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