All Small Six The 'Ideal' 200 Built By Committee

This relates to all small sixes
1966Mustang

1966Mustang

ALL THE THINGS
Staff member
Subscriber
  • I picked up a 1978 200 a while ago, for no other purpose other than I was bored and needed a road-trip to New Jersey.
  • The head has been cleaned and no cracks found. It is sitting on a shelf, partially pocket ported ... (for sale soon)
  • The block has not been inspected yet. It is sitting on an engine stand. Assume it's good and can be bored.
  • Also assume it's going in my 65 Mustang Coupe. My HP goal is... about 400ish
  • Reply with your suggestions/ideas on the Carb/EFI, Ignition, Pistons, Cam, AL Head?, Tranny, Reardiff, Exhaust, Turbo???
  • Upvote the replies you like, downvote the ones you don't (up/down arrows on the right of the replies).
  • Let's have some fun with this!
As 'decisions' are made, they'll be posted here, subject to change.

Added Google Sheet Feb 9, 2020 for P/Ns and Purchasing Dept. Progress...
docs.google.com

200 Built By Committee

BOM Seq,Order By Date,Part Desc,Part Num,Vendor,SuggestedBy,ItemURL,Notes,Contact,Email,QuoteNum,QuoteDate,QtyOrdered,Price,Total,Date Ordered,Date Received,Date Delta Days 10,BLOCK RELATED 10.1,200CID Block D8BE,D8BE,Craigslist...,Craigslist Bought,1,$80.00,$80.00 10.11,3/1/2021,Dual Roller Tim...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

Mostly Decided:
  1. Holley Super Sniper 4150 650HP PART# PART# 550-520 - https://www.holley.com/products/fue...sniper_efi/sniper_4bbl_tbi_kits/parts/550-520
    1. Sniper ignition, etc
  2. VI AL Head #10269 Ported - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/deposit-only-aluminum-head-package
  3. Extended Valve Stems +.30 - re note to Matt @ VI stem add +.30 to length as default
    1. SI
    2. Manley
  4. 1300909705/177210 BW Airwerks Turbo S300SX-E 8378 61.44mm T4 .88 AR Journal bearing
  5. F38-Black-14.5psi - Tial F38 38mm Wastegate Black 14.5psi
  6. QBOV-Black-11psi-AL - Tial Q BOV 50mm 11psi
  7. Camshaft - Solid-Lifter Cam CompCams Card 68362
  8. Lifters - Oil Hole Solid Lifters CompCams SKU 817-12
  9. Roller Rockers - RAU - F-44RA & F-44RRA? - http://rockerarms.com/pages/rollerfordcad.html
  10. Adjustable Timing Gear Set - PART# JPP-200-DRC - https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/dual-roller-timing-chain-set-170-200ci
Developing and Can-Do:
  1. Connecting Rods - Pauter Engineering FOR-235-565-1248F
  2. Custom forged 2618 alloy pistons - http://racetecpistons.com/
To be Developed or Figured on:
  1. Equal Length Header/T4 Collector
  2. Harmonic Balancer / Damper
    1. http://www.atiracing.com/contact/contactati.htm
    2. B-H-J - Spoke with Chris, good conversation
    3. Fluidamper contacted - nope
    4. ATI - too much normal stuff to do custom.
  3. Oil Pump
    1. Contacting Pauter on oil pump mods.
    2. 250CID Pump, Adapter and drive from D2S Racing Products Inc. ( @drag-200stang )
  4. Oil Pan
    1. Canton?
    2. Modify stock pan, develop windage kit

Added Jan 29,2021 7PM

Vendors Contacted/Emailed:

Magnum Machine Inc.
https://www.magnummachineincorporated.com
Magnum Machine Inc.
921 Business Park Dr
Chesapeake, VA 23320
Telephone: (757) 424-1440
FAX: (757) 424-6210
Owner says- "No prob, I like the oddball builds"

Rocker Arms Unlimited - https://rockerarms.com
16575 Clear Creek Rd.
Redding, CA. 96001
Tel: 530-242-1316
Fax: 530-242-1332
Email: rockerarms@rockerarms.com
re: @bubba22349 's suggestion on roller rocker availability, made in usa

Pauter Machine - https://pauter.com
Don Pauter
367 Zenith Street
Chula Vista, CA 91911
Tel: 619-422-5384
Fax: 619-422-1924
Email: info@pauter.com
Custom Connecting Rods - FOR-235-565-1248F
And oil pumps...
https://pauter.com/parts/oil-pumps/
contacting about HV 200 oil pump mods.

RaceTec Pistons - https://RaceTecPistons.com
Randy Gillis
15681 Computer Lane
Huntington Beach, Ca 92649
Tel: 714-903-4362
Fax: 714-891-0190

CAA Racing Products/Protohawk (torque-plates/other engineering)
https://www.protohawk.com/ https://ccaracing.com/
Michael Gallo
- offered to sanity check our torque plate. because... no one wants to wreck a chunk of stock :D - which is awfully gracious of the owner.
- Makes insert bushings too: https://ccaracing.com/engine-block-tooling/
 
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If you've noticed, the current mfg's trend is to much smaller displacements with forced induction. BIG difference these days is confidence in Fuel, Ignition and most parameter management through electronic sensor/feedback and even algorithmic control of power application resulting in manageable MTBF.

I would suggest including forced induction in the discussion with other available significant 'modern' improvements.

**********

How much do you want to spend?

Study the empirical data, do the applicable hard math, and then build what you can afford ...

have fun
 
Upvote 1 Downvote
1966Mustang said:
My HP goal is... as much as possible while being more reliable than new and driveable.
Click to expand...
Adding to what powerband said, you are looking at turbocharging or supercharging.

The cylinder head determines the power limit so the obvious key to this project is a ported VI aluminum head with EFI
That along with turbocharging or supercharging can put you in the 500 HP range.
The short stroke 200 is designed to scream at high rpms. The 500 HP level has a power band between 3500 and 7000 rpm.
With the cam lobe duration in the 230 degree range @ .050" lobe lift and a wide LSA, the engine is still very drivable below 3500.

The use of aftermarket connecting rods is strongly advised.

200ci - Alternative 200 six connecting rod

We had a joint effort looking for an aftermarket rod for the 200 and drag-200stang found that the Toyota 1JZ rod would be a good candidate. 4.931" center to center 2.166" BE bore for the 2.047" crank pin 1.020" BE Width 1.00 PE width. 22mm pin Comes in sets of six.
fordsix.com fordsix.com

You would be looking at custom forged pistons.
 
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So, yes... "A camel is a horse designed by a committee" - said someone

I might need some help laying out the question or ground rules here. Bear with me while you help me formulate this.

powerband said:
confidence in Fuel, Ignition and most parameter management through electronic sensor/feedback and even algorithmic control of power application resulting in manageable MTBF.
Click to expand...

I don't think I could have as succinctly strung this sentence together if I tried - hard. This is why you guys are VIPs here.

If forced induction is or adds to 'reliable', then by all means consider it inserted into the discussion.

The more 'modern' solution wins.

I am not inserting my opinions or any other restrictions than the original post... because I don't have any. I don't want to get too lost in those details.

This is what it is and this is the 'best' you're gonna do for 10K... for operation from 8 ft below sea-level to 5000 ft above. If that matters.

I think at the 'conclusion' of this thread/exercise we'll either have a 'definitive parts-list' or a bunch of links to all of the other posts across the forum. We're just going down this one particular rabbit-hole.

I am hoping the 'definitive parts-list' wins...
 
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1966Mustang said:
This is what it is and this is the 'best' you're gonna do for 10K... for operation from 8 ft below sea-level to 5000 ft above. If that matters.
Click to expand...
This is where powerband's "succinctly strung sentence" comes together.
Those using carburetors are not able to maintain the correct air/fuel ratio over wide changes in elevation.
This is a disaster with forced induction and will certainly result in engine failure.

Electronic Fuel Injection with a wide band O2 sensor is able to adjust with elevation changes.
It can also provide knock detection and control in case of fuel and temperature variations.
The actual list of parameters that can be controlled with EFI and it's benefits is too long to list here.

As far as forced induction goes, Whatever power the engine produces naturally aspirated, forced induction will double that figure at 16 to 17 lbs of boost and do it at a much lower rpm making the engine much more drivable.
 
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pmuller9 said:
This is where powerband's "succinctly strung sentence" comes together.
Those using carburetors are not able to maintain the correct air/fuel ratio over wide changes in elevation.
This is a disaster with forced induction and will certainly result in engine failure.

Electronic Fuel Injection with a wide band O2 sensor is able to adjust with elevation changes.
It can also provide knock detection and control in case of fuel and temperature variations.
The actual list of parameters that can be controlled with EFI and it's benefits is too long to list here.

As far as forced induction goes, Whatever power the engine produces naturally aspirated, forced induction will double that figure at 16 to 17 lbs of boost and do it at a much lower rpm making the engine much more drivable.
Click to expand...
I think we're making progress here.
I see the startings of some 'best practice modern upgrades'.

  • EFI, Wideband O2
  • VI Al Head Ported
  • Forced Induction 16-17lbs
  • Cam lobe duration in the 230 degree range @ .050" lobe lift and a wide LSA, drivable below 3500.
  • aftermarket connecting rods (Toyota 1JZ 4.931" center to center 2.166" BE bore for the 2.047" crank pin 1.020" BE Width 1.00 PE width. 22mm pin) - Molnar Rods
  • custom forged pistons
 
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Here is the closest 200 build to a 500 hp combination.
If the engine had the aluminum head along with a larger turbocharger it would be there.
One of the key components is the equal length, long tube exhaust header.

turbo 200 build

I have my intake and headers mocked up on the engine. I'm going a little different direction than most people on the forum, so I'm posting some pictures of the build so far. https://imageshack.com/i/pa6TIawvj https://imageshack.com/i/p311VtSBj https://imageshack.com/i/p3Ogt7PCj The head has...
fordsix.com fordsix.com
 
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Here is a thread based on a 550 HP build using a ported aluminum head and the Toyota rods.

CI/VI head setup questions

Questions about setting up the Alum head. Spring installed height is short unless you bury the valves in the seats. mine is 1.564" stock is 1.68 and CI use to say the alum head setup was 1.6" what are you guys using for springs? My cam is 0.505 lift at the valve and I'm not finding much for...
fordsix.com fordsix.com

https://www.dropbox.com/s/08j7cjqpzj7gcb8/inline 6 rods resized.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bss7uc6xo6ooycn/rod resized.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9xpiy14s8az62ht/head3 resized.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7rsme5yjogcqgeb/head2 resized.jpg?raw=1

As you read through this thread it makes reference to the biggest complaint about the VI alloy head and that is the fact that the head itself will support 7500 to 8000 rpm but the valves are too short and will not allow a valve spring with enough spring pressure to do the job.
The solution was to have Manley make custom length valves .300" longer to fix the problem.
 
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@pmuller9

Would you suggest that these custom length valves should be the default for all builds regardless of goal? Is it reasonable to assume that since they've made them at least once - that Manley should have the data to run them again?
 
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1966Mustang said:
@pmuller9

Would you suggest that these custom length valves should be the default for all builds regardless of goal? Is it reasonable to assume that since they've made them at least once - that Manley should have the data to run them again?
Click to expand...
Yes because even those using the heads for lower rpm have a problem with valve spring selection.
The retainer height is lower than on the stock iron head then consider that a valve spring should sit on a steel locator to protect the aluminum head which is another .060" loss in height.
This problem has been brought up to VI but there has been no response. It needs to brought up to Matt's attention again.

It is no problem for either SI valves or Manley to make the valves at a specified length.
They just cut the blanks used for the standard length valve to a longer length.
The custom valves were $30 each.

This head gives the small six the ability to produce Big Power if set up properly so it is annoying that it falls short over something like valve length.
The 200 six is small and light and placed in a light weight no frills early model Mustang with 500 HP has the ability to stomp on most of the heavier late model V8 mustangs
 
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I like the direction this 200 build is already heading! How about a 221 crank swap this is the largest stroke crank that could be made to fit in a 200 block, you would have to source one of those cranks from Australia, Boenos Aires, or Argentina. Or you could also go for a fully counter weighted crankshaft if there's still room in the budget. Best of luck
 
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The 200 crankshaft has a large overlap between the main and rod journals which gives the crank great strength and rigidity.
If you start increasing the stroke you lose that.
The slight increase in displacement won't buy you any extra power. That's determined by the head.

Back when the 300 six was winning at the drag strip with the factory forged steel cranks they might last 25 passes at the most and had terrible harmonic vibration.
Decreasing the stroke from 3.98" to 3.75" allowed them to live a lot longer and significantly decreased vibration.
 
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To go along with the Toyota size connecting Rod bearings and pistion pin sizes consider adding a set of the low drag type Metric Rings on those custom forged Pistons. Also a little tighter rod and main bearing clearances such as used in the Toyota 1JZ I am thinking about in the .0015 to .0018 range, add a Roller Cam & lifters, and the 1.65 Roller Rocker Arms might be a nice improvement towards moderen type performance with ability to use the more modern oils 5W-30W for less rotating friction power losses. Best of luck
 
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