Installing DUI dist and replacing clutch... questions!

[Varilux]

After recently deciding to stick with the 200 inline in my '65 Mustang (recently rebuilt .030 over with a mild cam), I ordered a DUI from Performance Distributors and a clutch kit from Modern Drivelines. I've done some reading here on both projects (learned a lot about the SCV valve on one thread), but still have some questions...

DUI install- I understand I need to hook the vacuum up to the source on the log right below the carburetor...
1.) I'm planning on running a rubber hose for the vacuum line- anyone know the thread/size of the plug that is currently in the log (so I can get a fitting for the hose)?
2.) Same question for plugging the current vacuum source- what thread/size do I need to plug off the vacuum source on the carb?
3.) When I ordered the distributor, I had to answer a whole bunch of questions about my compression, cam, etc. I assumed this meant Performance Dist would be curving the distributor for my set-up (but from many threads it seems I need to take the distributor to have it "recurved" after I receive it). What's the deal here?
4.) At the end of the day, is this a job better left for a professional mechanic? I am pretty good at hanging parts (have replaced manifolds, A/C systems, etc.) but my abilities at timing consist of going by vacuum and ear.

Clutch replacement- I had a T-5 installed when I restored the car a couple years ago, and unfortunately did not realize the clutch was adjusted way too light. As a result, it slipped and- I believe- eventually warped something in there. I adjusted the clutch properly (I'm running the original z-bar linkage), but I get a lot of clutch chatter in 1st and reverse, and if I have three passengers, the clutch definitely slips through 1st & 2nd. I ordered a new clutch kit from Modern Drivelines (where I sourced all the parts for the conversion), but they did not have a resurfaced flywheel.

I have the 8.5" bowl flywheel, and the helpful guy at MD mentioned I really need to make sure the shop knows they need to "resurface both sides of the flywheel." I mentioned this to the mechanic where I plan to take the car (Kane's- they do flywheel resurfacing for most of the garages in the area), and the guy (who used to mechanic for Dallas Mustangs) said he had never seen the 8.5" bowl type- but he could resurface almost anything.
1.) Is there any special instructions he should have regarding resurfacing this flywheel?

I'm looking forward to getting the distributor and clutch sorted out, because- other than the fact that the car is definitely not efficiently burning fuel (only getting 16mpg, and there's black unburnt fuel smoke when I'm backing into my garage- along with carbon blowing out the tailpipe when I start) and the wonky clutch, the car is a blast to drive with the T-5 and 3.20 diff (I swapped in an 8" diff when the 7.25" failed, and installed Chockostangs' V8 disc brake/steering/suspension package earlier this year). Trying to get the car in tip-top shape to make the drive from Dallas to Charlotte for the 50th celebration next year.

Sorry for the length- thanks for any info!
Pete
http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/a...-conversion-complete-then-some-must-qtr02.jpg

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

Do you have the Dist , if so look on the bottom of where the cap registers , Id bet it say 24@3000 if so I will respond with the what gives On the Dist question ) as for the Flywheel if he says he can resurface anything , should be no problem , BUT the recessed flywheels are tougher and require a machine with a wheel that will fit down in the recess , if it is not been overheated ( blued with hot spots ) many shops can turn them in a lathe, if it has hot spots , only a grinding wheel equipped machine can do it

 

[Frankenstang]

Welcome aboard Pete/Varilux, great to see another member wanting to tap the performance of the I6

I don't want to knock the product as our host (who thankfully does not fill this forum with advertising) sells them, it's a decent ignition system, but does have it's idiosyncrasies (e.g. don't know that the custom curve Davis Unified promises is all that custom as mentioned, may have to check rotor for proper clearance for centrifugal advance weight clearance...there is posts on that, generally is set up with too much vac advance IMO, and it's a bit pricey...not intended to be derogatory), but it can be setup to run efficiently. There are a couple folks here who offer 'true custom curving' to your build with Sun Distributor machines...you've got the attention of one of them (FSD).

Also as mentioned the 8.5" dished flywheel re-surfacing can be tricky. The outer, stepped-up ledge or rim, where the Pressure Plate mounts needs to be surfaced an equal amount to the stepped-down larger clutch disk surface. Otherwise if only the recessed area where the clutch disk lands is resurfaced you'll lose camping force on the clutch disk. See the 215mm Clutch Disk sticky at the top of the Transmission forum for additional info. Somewhere there should be a factory spec for the difference in heights between the two surfaces. You might check that sticky or check with Rickwrench on the specs for distance between face and ledge.

Another thing to be conscious of is the flywheel mounting bolt holes on the crank are open to the oil gallery. You must use an oil resistant sealer on the flywheel mounting bolts to avoid oil soak on the clutch face.

Given your poor gas mileage and heavy carbon/black smoke output I'm pretty sure you're running rich. Could be float level or float condition, fuel pressure, jetting, etc. A wide or even narrow band analyzer is best for getting A/F ratio dialed in, but you can get good results with basic plug reads. First thing I might suggest is a fuel pressure test...the gauge can be had as 'loan a tool', or inexpensive purchase at Harbor Freight. The aftermarket replacement fuel pumps (e.g. Airtex) put out too much pressure from what I've seen. I think your relatively poor mileage is due more to rich running than ignition, but make no mistake, custom curving is easily worth the price of admission.

I'm going to guess you're running an autolite 1100, most common scv carb. Capping the vacuum at the carb and running off log vacuum may be the same size fittings...wanna say 3/8" NPT. Rubber hose is fine for vacuum, and you can get the requisite brass fittings at the DIY store or local hardware...plug for SCV and barbed fitting for rubber vacuum hose on the log/manifold. Personally I prefer ported, but manifold is what you've got to work with given your scv carb.
Good luck and keep the questions coming

 

[wsa111]

Welcome to the forum, always glad to see new members.
All the advice you have received is perfect.
The DUI is probably set up for 24 degrees mechanical. This needs to be addressed.
These distributors need an adjustable vacuum advance, need new weights, new rotor & properly set up with a sun distributor tester.
Myself & FSD not only have the sun machine, but also have the knowledge to properly get you the best performance for your combination.
Its to late now, but the duraspark II distributor would have been a better choice along with an MSD 6AL electronic box. However the duraspark distributor is less costly to set up.
Any questions will be gladly welcome. Bill

 

[Varilux]

Thanks for the replies, welcome, and willingness to share knowledge! Every single part in my car has been swapped to 8cyl parts except for the engine, so I thought long and hard about finding a Fox body with a 302 and just swapping things out, but dangit, the 200 is freshly rebuilt, runs just fine, and I take an almost masochistic pleasure when someone approaches the car at a show telling their buddy "Hey this is a nice '65," then looks under the hood and says, "Oh, its just a six- don't see many of those anymore!" Finally, when I just have to scratch the need for speed itch, I happen to have a 2014 Mustang GT with the 3.73 rear axle as my "other car." So, screw it, I'm stickin' with the 6.

Anyhow, the DUI hasn't arrived yet- when it does, I will check for the 24 degrees @ 3000 marking and post what I find. After reading a bunch of posts last night, it appears many here aren't big fans of the DUI- but I've also read some articles that are pretty positive (including a recommendation on ClassicInlines), and I liked the idea of having an easily replaceable module for when I make my long trip next April. I plan on installing a relay operated by the wire currently running to the positive side of the coil to bring power to the distributor straight from the battery.

I suspected/suspect I am running rich. However, I've leaned the mix screw as far is it can go at idle and when I pulled the plugs, all six look exactly like they should. I have about 7k miles on the car since getting back on the road a couple years ago. About 3k were on the carb that was on the car (a replacement 1v from Autozone), and I was getting around 20mpg with the T-5 transmission in mixed driving. Due to driveability issues when hot, I purchased and installed a refurbished Autolite 1100. The car behaves perfectly now, but the mileage dropped to 16mpg or so (even in primarily highway driving). I pulled it apart and the float seems fine (and the jet is the same size as the old one- I even swapped the old one into the new carb just to be sure).

When I get on it, I get some (not a lot, but visible) black smoke. The car hasn't burned a drop of oil in 7k miles (two oil changes along the way), so its not oil (which is usually white). Also, the car has ALWAYS shot carbon out the pipe upon start up (I have black carbon soot all over everything behind the tailpipe in the garage). Hadn't thought to check the fuel pressure- what would be the fix for that?

As for the clutch, I'm sending that project to a shop called "Kane's" in Lewisville. A couple of shops have told me they do most of the clutch resurfacing around here, and one of the mechanics worked for Dallas Mustang for 10 years, so hopefully he'll sort things out properly. I wish someone reproduced the bowl flywheel, but it seems everyone has forgotten that 47% of '65 Mustangs were 6 cyls! Thanks for the directing me to the 215mm sticky thread (and the PM on Vintage-Mustangs), Robert/Frankenstang! Lots of good info there (thinking I may want that Alfa pressure plate), and I'll let the tech know the surface hieight difference should be 1".

Thanks again,
Pete

 

[bubba22349]

You might check your carbs power valve sounds like you could have a bad one or one that's is not working correctly good luck

 

[Frankenstang]

Myself & FSD not only have the sun machine, but also have the knowledge to properly get you the best performance for your combination.

Now you've got both their attentions These two gentlemen are the FSP members equipped to do 'true' custom curving on your DUI. The DUI can be made to be truly efficient and effective with some additional work, but as mentioned, the "Davis custom curves" reported here seem to be fairly generic for our sixes...could be better. Either of these folks will give you a true custom curve. See if you can find the relatively recent thread by FSD (I believe, or could be by wsa111), titled something like 'additional problems with DUI'. I can't remember who, but one of them identified a problem with the centrifugal advance weights not having sufficient room/clearance at the rotor base. Given the investment of the DUI, it's definitely worth getting a true custom curve.

If the fuel pressure output of the fuel pump is above 7psi (and frankly above 5psi is flirting with problems on an autolite...even less with webers), it could be sufficient to create a flooding condition with excess pressure forcing the needle valve off it's seat and dumping fuel.

Fuel pressure regulator is the answer for too much pressure...
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-12-804/overview/
You can also find a 'quick fuel' brand on the bay.

Yours may have been dumping black smoke and carbon for a while, but it still likely indicates a rich condition...no offense. You could always try to clean up some of the existing carbon to help you determine how it's doing going forward, but your plugs should read a light tan. Any black build up is generally wasted fuel (just make sure it's not blue smoke, and oil burning...plugs will be a wet black, and valve seals could be an issue there).

The power valve on the 1100 is a bit of an anomaly...they are generally not considered a serviceable part...

Check out "Mike's Carburetors"
http://www.carburetor-blog.com/?page_id=246
if you've not seen that site before, for some good tips on 1100 maintenance. One might also suspect your accelerator pump could be delivering a too much of a 'fuel shot' on acceleration (tips on setting that at Mike's Carburetors and in the FSM).

Also need to be sure all check balls, and the accel pump discharge weight are in place to avoid internal bypassing and excess fuel delivery.

Primary suspect, IIWIYS, might still be fuel pressure as these aftermarket pumps put out a heckuva lot. Good on ya for keeping the 6= 8) and keep the info and questions coming...lots of knowlegable folks here! Good luck

 

[78merKri6]

Varilux,

Frankenstang mentioned something easily missed that I haven't seen noted on this subject before.
Be sure to seal flywheel/crankshaft capscrews.

Bubba also touched on a good place for you to examine for running rich. We need a means to determine if vacuum is pulling t he powervalve closed on Autolite 1V.

I also question whether 1V floatebody tilt/angle/orientation of round or flat surface is correct since few of us have a good manual or description of how it should appear.

Hope I'm not being confusing. The 1V is a good carb if working right. However, many of us have had problems with ours, Just keep asking, reading and don't quit.

Good luck.

Gary
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[Varilux]

Thanks again!

Okay, I do notice that fuel pump appears to be brandy new (imagine they replaced it when the engine was rebuilt- which was right before I purchased the car). I know very little about carburetors, but its easy to understand the needle attached to the float would be forced open by excess pressure- which would constantly flood the engine and cause it to run rich. When I had the carb apart, I remember wondering how that little needle holds back the pressure from the fuel pump... As for the check balls, I'm guessing those are the little ball bearings that were inside the carb- I took all those out since they didn't seem to serve any purpose (sorry, just kidding- I had no idea what they were for, but I took apart the original carb and noticed it had balls in all the same places as the refurbished 1100 I was installing).

This would make sense, actually- since I have always noticed the car starts immediately when its been sitting cold, but takes a few seconds of cranking upon a restart when hot. (I'm guessing the easy cold start comes from a non-flooding condition- since there would be no excess fuel starting cold, but a restart when hot has to overcome the excess fuel left from when I shut the car off.) It might be wishful thinking, but I think excess fuel pressure could be the cause of the poor gas mileage and rich condition. However, I'm still stymied by the plugs- which, as I mentioned, look exactly as they should- dry an tannish- definitely no carbon build up.

I looked up the fuel regulator on Summit- looks like it also has a fitting for a pressure gauge (which I see they also sell). Easy enough to figure out the line currently running into the carb goes into one side of the regulator- and then I'll need an extra short line to run from the other side of the regulator to the carb?

Also, I definitely plan to point out the need for thread seal to the mechanic installing the new clutch. Actually I notice Summit sells a new pressure plate (made by a company called Zoom or something) that has about a dozen fingers (vs. the 3 on the rebuilt PP I'll be getting). Is it worth getting the new PP as well? I printed out an article from Modern Drivelines (which also mentions the need for thread seal) and will be giving it to the mechanic.

Since the '65 is not my primary car, I plan to hook up the DUI, see how it runs, then send it off for recurving if there are any problems. I think I should be able to handle installing the distributor myself.

Really- thanks again... its great to find people who a.) know anything about 6cyl Ford engines, and b.) come back with something other than "just put a 302 in there and call it a day." If any of y'all are planning to attend Charlotte next year, let me know what you're driving and I'll be happy to buy a round of adult beverages!

 

[Varilux]

Everything arrived today! Sure enough, the scratched numbers on the bottom of the distributor indicate it has been set up for 24 degrees. I sent an email to Performance Distributors asking them if I needed to get the distributor curved specifically for my 200 six cylinder, and they said "your distributor will arrive curved specifically to your needs- ready to be installed."

So, I am guessing those who specialize in our six cylinder engines have a difference of opinion regarding the appropriate amount of timing (and I'm sure the specialists are right). Of more immediate concern is the SIZE of this thing, though! I'm going to guess the DUI distributor is going to sit quite a bit higher up than the stock distributor- because there is no way its going to fit if it sits where the stock one is sitting now.

I also received the new pressure plate and clutch kit. I'm going to farm that job out and give the mechanic all the info on resurfacing and reinstalling the flywheel. While he's at it, I may just have him throw in the new distributor (I'm going to wire the relay and hook up a manifold vacuum source ahead of time). Regarding the distributor- will the 24 degrees damage the engine- or just steal performance?

Thanks! Pete

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

Its NOT a difference of opinion, its a fact , I have been re-curving Dist before Davis was around, They are WRONG , the Deal is that Yours is the 6th Dist that has 24degrees at 3000 , Coincidence , Hardly , what it is is a Safe generic curve that works great on most Chevrolet Trucks ( Pun intended ) The Vac advance is NOT adjustable , Id put money on the weights sticking , and the Nylon Rotor Screws are a Gimmick I have yet to have a Falcon 6 combo where 12 Dist degrees ( 24 crank ) was optimal , but its your money

 

[wsa111]

Pete, it might not damage the engine , but your engine drivability will definitely suffer.
The idle & low speed are dependent on the proper distributor initial advance.
If you advance the initial your total advance will be way too much. If excessive it could cause engine damage & lost performance.
The vacuum advance as supplied in non adjustable. This needs to be replaced by an adjustable unit.
By the time you replace all the junk performance distributors supplies you will have over $500.00 in the distributor.
The best thing you should done is to have purchased is a DS11 distributor & have it properly set up & install a MSD 6AL box. The cost would be less & give you more bang for the buck. Bill

 

[Varilux]

Without a doubt, if I had come on the forum first and benefited from everyone's advice I would have ordered a different distributor (to clarify, by "specialists" I was referring to the two gentlemen on this forum- I'm sure Performance Distributors supplies all kinds of products and- like nearly everyone else in the world- the specific performance characteristics of an inline six probably doesn't interest them too much). Instead, I read the tech section on the main website that hosts this forum (and assumed I was getting good advice there). The tech section definitely (to my reading) makes it sound like the DUI is the way to go.

Now I'm reading that the distributor is simply configured incorrectly for our engines, and I believe you both. Understand its just a little frustrating to actually do research, choose the "best recommended," and then find out that no- the source was incorrect and the product you purchased was (to quote) "junk."

It doesn't overly bother me if I end up with $500 in the distributor (if the money aspect of things bothered me, I wouldn't be able to tolerate a hobby involving classic Mustangs). From the start of this project, I just wanted to do whatever it takes to turn a 50 year old car into something solid and capable of reliable daily driving.

At this point, I plan to install the distributor and see how the thing runs. If the performance is poor, I'll be taking it back out and either sending it off to have the (seemingly many) faults "fixed" or just start all over with a DS11 distributor. I really do appreciate the advice (and even if it is a bit frustrating, I appreciate gaining an understanding of the shortcomings of the distributor I went with).

Thanks,
Pete

 

[JackFish]

Well there are a couple of guys offering re-curving services here.
Not sure if they do DUIs though.
And I think they've both already posted here... 8)

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

I have E-mailed Mike on the DUI issue and got NO return mail or feedback from him , I only want to help , been doing this a long time , I know the value of a Dollar and hate to spend where the benefit ( or lack of it ) is no good , I have no ill will towards DUI ( Davis unified ignitions ) but I do not think they are knowledgeable on the Falcon 6's, the Tech Tips need updated IMHO , nuff said

 

[wsa111]

Performance distributors just markets a distributor which is a middle of the road application.
I have used them before on a 415 small block chevy & with the correct mods you have a decent distributor.
On the 6 cylinder engine all distributors go on my sun tester & set up to each application.
http://i.imgur.com/LbZAa55.jpg

 

[Frankenstang]

Performance Distributors supplies all kinds of products and- like nearly everyone else in the world- the specific performance characteristics of an inline six probably doesn't interest them too much).

Pete, I understand your frustration with difference of information on the DUI. Especially given you've already invested in it. I also understand FSD & Bill's bit of frustration trying to get the word out on the DUI shortcomings. I don't believe it's necessarily regarded as "junk" but that can be a matter of opinion. I just think there is surprise and exasperation with the fact that folks here in the Ford Six Performance community have repeatedly noted a need for improvement, but the feedback has not been heeded by Davis.

Your statement above captures it pretty well...there needs to be improvement in the so called "custom curving" Davis offers. All evidence to date suggests a standard generic curve based on it being a 6cyl (but no more customization than that) is being used...that's not really customization IMO. So even though they take cam, compression and other info from you...it seems there has yet to be any 1 to 1 application of this info in setting up any individuals DUI curve...they all seem to come the same.

Further these guys here have identified a couple notable short comings on the DUI...lack of adjustable vac advance and weight interference issues and those should be addressed, but Davis is probably selling a lot more of these to the bent8 crowd, and the info from our or niche may be falling on deaf ears.

Anyways.....your hard hot starts in Texas summer may likely be do to fuel boil. The heat build up on the passenger side of the engine given the location of the exhaust and carb are a recipe for trouble in even 90* temps, much less Texas routine triple digits. You might consider bypassing the coolant routing on the carb base heater/spacer for summer running, or consider fabbing a heat shield over the exhaust manifold to deflect heat away from the carb, or phenolic carb base/spacer or combination there of.

I think running the DUI to start as it comes you'll need to dial back the initial timing more than you might like in order to avoid the dangers of pre-detonation, but you should see some improvement over an older load-o/scv combo. Good luck

 

[Varilux]

I installed the DUI yesterday (posted a write-up over on the Vintage-Mustang forum, which has some pics http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/v...9010-installed-dui-dist-200-l6-step-step.html).

I used a relay to bring full battery power to the distributor, and the performance is improved over my previous set-up (stock distributor with Pertronix ignitor under the cap). Engine just sounds much better- particularly as the RPMs increase- and there is no "hole" in the power now.

Overall, it wasn't that hard of a project (the only part that had me worried was having the distributor "hang up" about 3/4" above flush when installing the new one... turns out it takes some patience to get the gear to slide the whole way down onto the cam).

Once I get the clutch sorted, I may pull the distributor and send it out for proper set-up (trusting the experts here that it needs addressing- the car seems to run fine as is). For the two gentlemen here who service these distributors, are there websites with instructions on how/where to send in the distributor? I'm assuming I need to send the entire unit- so I'll keep the packaging it came in from PD.

Although I notice my unburnt fuel symptoms seem to have disappeared, I also plan on ordering the fuel pressure regulator (and gauge) from Summit. Now I'm just hoping my flywheel is capable of being resurfaced, and the shop can get the clutch working properly.

Thank you again for all the advice and knowledge!