300 with gm ls3 head

Yeah CNC Dude I think keeping the stock cam lobe positions would be the best, I do plan to go with a roller. Maybe also the intake ports there are a few I have collected 3 x 2 weber and 2 x 4, though the supply of good used intakes is probably low. But thinking of this as a purelly a race head if its going to limit the flow potential then might be better to go with a fresh new design i.e. raised ports ect. As far as the exhaust there's mostly only the truck hearers made so with a 240 / 300 in a race car you would need to build a custom header to fit, no need to go with stock port layout there maybe a good flowing raised D port. :nod:

Edited for below post: Your right on the intake ports FTF I would not want to compromise for a Race head just to be able use some existing intakes, it would be better to start over and build them to match the heads higher flow potential.
 
bubba22349":1uw7at4n said:
... Maybe also the intake ports there are a few I have collected 3 x 2 weber and 2 x 4, though the supply of them is probably low and if its going to limit the potential might be better to go with a fresh design.

Now here is where I would respectfully disagree with keeping the stock intake port size / shape. It is easy to build an adaptor to mate a stock intake manifold to intake ports optimized for location and shape, so keeping the stock size and location is going to limit those teams with all out performance efforts in mind.
 
CNC-Dude and 'Flyer:

You guys have probably forgotten more about head design than I'll ever know. But what would your thought be about a big Ford head that generally follows the factory head but with the following revisions:

1) Of course, cast from aluminum for both weight savings and better heat dispersion.

2) Keep intake and exhaust ports in the same configuration and orientation but raise them (1/4" or 1/2" or ?) to allow for a better radius to and from the valve pocket. Open the ports up for better "as cast" flow with additional material for race porting. This allows for the use of most or all of the existing aftermarket intake manifolds and headers.

3) Keep the valve cover mating surface in the stock configuration but raise it to provide space for performance rockers and girdles. This would allow the use of existing factory and aftermarket valve covers.

4) Possibly alter the combustion chamber shape for better burn control and maybe adjust the angle of the spark plugs.

5) If there are any water jacket issues with the factory heads, try to resolve them.

6) And price the head "as cast" ready to bolt on competitively.

It seems to me that this approach would allow the lowest cost of ownership since many existing parts can be used, and yet still provide a relatively strong racing platform if the intake and exhaust flow numbers can be significantly improved over the best race-prepped factory head.

Just thinking out loud ...

Russ
 
My int/ex core patterns are already much different than the stock Ford port configuration. Changing them isn't a problem, but trying to fit a better port into a defined area doesn't always allow for a much better port. So it just depends on how much trying to fit a better port shape and design into these parameters helps or hurts the flow. Ideally, you want to end up with a much better head than the one you are replacing. Also, since the existing intakes on the market are designed and tailored for the stock head and what its capable of, they might not be the best intake for this head, and a better suited intake may also need to be develop to take advantage of its better attributes. A lot of variables, but nothing that can't be worked out.
 
For some reason I was not able to see the pictures of your Chevy head before looks like a great design with hi port intakes can only imagine how well that would flow if it was made to fit on a 300. (y)
 
Well it definately will be something for the Ford guys that has never been available before, and it has to be full of potential and possibilities. I need to start doing some mockups and get busy then.
 
i would 100% agree with ditching the stock intake manifold configuration. Going to a hi-port head is the biggest reason to even do something like this. I do remember from reading Bell's 'four stroke performance tuning' that there was quite a bit that could be done improving u-flow heads, i think he had some examples from coventry climax race motors... i pretty much skipped that portion of the book because i was busy blueprinting an OHC honda single at the time.

I think going to a solid-flange exhaust and solid-flange intake would be a huge advantage just for better sealing and maintenance.

Keeping the stock camshaft and e-i-e-i-o configuration would be a big plus, in addition to making old macdonald happy.


Do the valves in these custom heads you are making get canted from stock or are they stock angle? I would think that in something like this even canting 5 degrees more than stock could have huge performance gains. Would the stock pushrods have enough clearance? They would be fairly easy to tip out as well with a little grinding to the block if need be.
 
The valve angles are inclined in just one angle like the stock cylinder head, but not canted. When this head is fitted to a Chevy engine, not much is needed in the way of pushrod clearancing. I also have (2) intake manifold patterns to go with the Chevy head, one is a race style 4bbl intake and the other is a mechanical fuel injected intake, so I have several options to offer in that department.
 
Back on the topic, briefly, FTF mentioned laying an LS gasket on a 300 block, as a dissuading exercise. 'sup with that? lol Big issues?

LS heads have had some major airflow development, and the latest versions. I have a pair that may go on a C for my pops.
 
Ok, I already have made merchandising apparel available for several of the intake manifolds i've done, so yeah some jackets or T-shirts would be cool.
 
Firepower354":3cythn1g said:
...I'm not smart enough to see why, once the pushrod chamber is opened up, that it isn't a reasonable project...

It is reasonable.

It is not OPTIMAL.

Offsetting some chambers begets differences in airflow. Sometimes moving a port wall as little as .040" can change airflow by 10%. If one is going to make a hybrid cylinder head it can be assumed that maximum horsepower potential is high on the list of desired outcomes. I've yet to see someone attempt to build one to maximize fuel economy. So if one undrtakes to build a performance head why would you want to start with one that compromises so much to begin with. Those who came before us learned that a two-piece welded Cleveland head did not perform as well as a three-piece welded Cleveland head did not perform as well as a six-piece welded Cleveland head did not perform as well as a solid billet head with no welds.

So as an academic discussion I guess it is fun to talk about it. I want to see one running and putting up numbers. Someody needs to take this on and wow us all.And by "us all" I mean me.
 
chessterd5":4l021mot said:
hello, what about a 4.46 bore spacing? is that close enough?

See http://www.fordracingparts.com/download/charts/217.pdf for some USA market 1963 to 2005 bore spacings, with massive errors for the 250 deck height.

It has the BUSCH 4.5 V6 4.469" bore spacing engines, based on the 3.8 Essex 90 degree but without the 4.193 spacings. The Essex 90 had a 4.469" left to right cylinder splay distance. The Essex 60 degree V6 2.5 and 3.0 bore spacing, which was what the Vulcan 4.33 bore spacing engine was metricated off. Or the Boss (nee Huricane) 6.2 V8 with its 4.53" centers. Or the Volvo S80, which has the Yamaha and Duratec 6, and Aston Martin V12 bore spacings. Or the i-5 cylinder Volvo based Focus XR5 and Mondeo engine. Or the BDA variants made for the Ford RS200. Or the Coyote 5.0. But you get the idea...

Yes, 4.46 is okay but not ideal. At the end cylinders, thats pretty much as a big chunk of ledging to cover as you'd like.

Lets do some general knowledge envelope setting. The Ford SOHC Lima head can have a SOHC Volvo or SOHC Pinto head put on it, but the 2.0 Pinto and 2.3 Lima bore pitches are different by 157 thou per bore, the original fully water jacketed B series Volvo and 1969 to 1974 Pinto engines were 102 mm 4.016" bore centers, but the 2.3 required another 157 thou or 4.173" to get enough gasket between the saimesed bores, as Chevy and Jag at the time were suddenly having huge problems with just 0.275"and 0.1875" on its bigger engines, and 0.236" wasn't enough for a vibrating 3.78" bore OHC Ford but 0.393 was. Ford made the changes, but kept most of the Lima engine the same as the early Pinto OHC

That means ledging happens, and any more than 40 thou ledging makes shrouding. On BMC A series 848, 998, 1098 engines, you can fit a later model Sprite/Austin America or 1275 Cooper S cylinder head, but the earlier bores are pitched differently. The bores of the first XKE Jag 4235 cc engine were re-pitched to an even 3.8125" suit the stress of a 3.625" bore engine, the old 1936 Standard Triumph based bore pitch of the old 2.4, 2.8 and 3.442 and 3.781 engines had to be changed to ensure were differently pitched to ensure that an even 0.1875" of metal between cylinders was enough to cover off head gasket failures.

In each case, the heads can swap between the smaller variants, but it isn't optimal, and occurs because the option of loosing 12 to 16% capacity at about 1 hp per cube is just not worth it.

The uniform airflow on these engines, especially the Lima 2300, suffered because the intake manifold is still pitched at the old 1993 cc Pinto engine spacings, and the outer no 1 and no 4 branches are curved more to suit the early Pinto's intake manifold. The 1275 head on a 998 non Cooper engine is vastly different between cylinder, to the point that if a scramble cam is made with different lobe centers, the engine really picks up a huge amount of power. The Jag B head flows well, but not on an early 83 or 87 mm bore 3.4 or 3.8 because of the ledging. Then there was the Datsun L series six cylinder and Valiant slant engines, with different pitches between bores, but the differences were smaller than 50 thou.
 
Optimal (with cooling) would be a scratch-built, cast and CNC'd clean-sheet head designed for the small bore, modern airflow trends and given bore spacing. For drag only, billet is as easy as lifting a slab-O-luminum on to the table and punching the right buttons BASED ON CURRENT MOST-BESTEST HOLES & SUCH.
Or even better, a bigger bore block with stouter cylinder walls, main webs, stroker clearance, raised deck. Hell, let's make it aluminum too.
And switch the head to DOHC, so all those darn pushrods aren't peeing on the wheels of progress?



But since that's not happened, after years of discussion, and isn't looking like the alloy is being heated for a pour of a modern piece, and the thread is about the LS head on the polished JEWEL "we" have THE HONOR OF BEING INTIMATE WITH, I'll go out on a limb and WILDLY SPECULATE an LS3 head, as un-optimal as it is for what lies below the head gasket, will easily outperform what has been done in iron. Even on-center, a Cleveland head is a dinosaur. Yates stuff did good, but was a long ways from Glidden's SB-P/S stuff. Making a 6-piece LS cut & weld wouldn't be that difficult, just time-consuming.

In between, approaching "optimal" with available bits and minimal cut/weld, could one machine a deck spacer (Kaase 2004) to allow longer rods (good thing in it's own, no?), sleeve 1,3,4,6 to the LS location?

FWIW, I'm not arguing, just bouncing ideas. Hard Core is fun :)
 
Firepower354":3iqa79zp said:
...I'll go out on a limb and guarantee an LS3 head, as un-optimal as it is for what lies below the head gasket, will easily outperform what has been done in iron...

Bring it!

 
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER":164bchf1 said:
Firepower354":164bchf1 said:
...I'll go out on a limb and guarantee an LS3 head, as un-optimal as it is for what lies below the head gasket, will easily outperform what has been done in iron...

Bring it!



I think someone is about to cut that limb that firepower is out on.
 
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