Sell me on an induction setup

[1961 Futura]

Hey fellows,

I have a lot of respect for the opinions on this board, and I need some help. I know it’s important to have a focused build to avoid wasting a lot of money, but I’m really wishy washy about an intake setup.

I have a ‘61 Futura that’s going to have a ‘65 200 swapped in place of the 170 once it’s been built. This is my daily driver and I take it everywhere, so fuel economy, reliability, and ease of maintenance are all concerns. So is a period look, though (if it weren’t, I could get what I wanted in a Honda or something).

I would love a CI aluminum head, but I don’t see that being in the cards right now. I can probably dig up a D8 head, though, given enough time scrounging. I already have a C5 head on the 200; and a D0 head on the 170.

Carburetor wise, I’m currently running a big-bore YF, have an unidentified small-bore, manual-choke YF on the shelf, and an 1100 on the 200.

With that preamble out of the way, and in no particular order, here are the induction setups I am contemplating:

Offenhauser 3x1

Pros:
Very cool looking
Gives good fuel distribution
Gives decent fuel economy if driven conservatively

Cons:
Complicated to set up
Requires frequent maintenance
Difficult to source three matching carburetors

Holley 2100

Pros:
Retains a quasi-factory look
One of the mostly highly respected 2bbl designs
Very simple and low maintenance
Easily obtained

Cons:
Requires machining for a direct mount or an adaptor that may compromise hood clearance
Not terribly exciting to look at
Probably the least-fuel-efficient option
Might be too much carburetor for a daily driver
Fuel distribution no better than stock

Weber 32/36

Pros:
Retains a quasi-factory look
Progressive operation - A good compromise between performance and economy
Fairly simple and low maintenance

Cons:
Less-period looking than the triples or the 2100
I’ve never seen a used one ($$$)
Not terribly exciting too look at
Fuel distribution no better than stock

Forced Induction

Pros:
Cool looking
Makes up for the shortcomings of a log head and possibly a stock carburetor

Cons:
Complicated setup requiring fabrication and/or plumbing
Foreign to me
Possible maintenance headaches

I would love to hear opinions on this. Between the Ford Falcon hand book, tffn.net, and here, I’ve got lots of ideas, but now I need some guidance.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[1961 Futura]

I neglected to mention that the car currently has a 2.77 3-speed, and will remain standard shift. Four or five forward gears are probably in the future, though.

The door tag indicates the car has 3.10 gears, and I'm inclined to believe it by the RPM she turns. I suspect I'll stick with the 7.25 axle unless a 4-lug 8-inch shows up at a price I can't refuse; I can't see myself breaking it.

-Dave

 

[MPGmustang]

well it depends what you want to use the car for...

This is my daily driver and I take it everywhere, so fuel economy, reliability, and ease of maintenance are all concerns

alright, then you want torque, and cruise rpm. with little extra hp... like a 256/256 112* with .450 lift. if you wanted you can custom grind it to 108* lob center for more HP, but you'll get less vac, and possibly a little lope at idle.

my 1100 pony vaporizer is fantastic, I really love it, best mod i did, I was getting 14 on a holley 1942 and this one right out of the box got 18, and lateley with a 10% bigger jet, I'm getting 20 in city, but I also beefed up my engine.


with a 1bbl you'll be able to use your stock linkage,

any 2bbl will have to use a cable setup,

3x1bbl you can alway's cap off the outer 2 if you can't get it running right. but as mentioned, it's a hassle, I don't think you want for a daily

forced, i've heard you can get 50hp more if you run 2 gas powered leaf blowers under your hood too... lol
forced, heat would be the issue, the cooler the engine, the more boost u can use. start reading

alum, just get it, add a 4bbl "easy" TBI system that learns and call it good would look way cool too and give great performance/mileage.

 

[PlainJane68]

forced, i've heard you can get 50hp more if you run 2 gas powered leaf blowers under your hood too... lol

This might give you a chuckle MPG hahaha :rolflmao:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engi ... index.html

 

[MPGmustang]

forced, i've heard you can get 50hp more if you run 2 gas powered leaf blowers under your hood too... lol

This might give you a chuckle MPG hahaha :rolflmao:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engi ... index.html

yeah that's what I was talking about lol :rolflmao:

 

[bucfan1234]

. . . on my way to Sears right now!

 

[woodbutcher]

Now that is TRUE redneck engineering.BUT,it worked to a degree. :rolflmao: :rolflmao:
Leo

 

[1961 Futura]

well it depends what you want to use the car for...

This is my daily driver and I take it everywhere, so fuel economy, reliability, and ease of maintenance are all concerns

alright, then you want torque, and cruise rpm. with little extra hp... like a 256/256 112* with .450 lift. if you wanted you can custom grind it to 108* lob center for more HP, but you'll get less vac, and possibly a little lope at idle.

my 1100 pony vaporizer is fantastic, I really love it, best mod i did, I was getting 14 on a holley 1942 and this one right out of the box got 18, and lateley with a 10% bigger jet, I'm getting 20 in city, but I also beefed up my engine.

I hadn’t really contemplated staying with a 1bbl. From a simplicity/ease-of-maintenance standpoint, that makes the best sense. I appreciate the camshaft recommendation too - is that something Classic Inlines will do? Or do I need to call Crane or Isky or somebody?

Do you recommend a header with that kind of setup? Since this sounds fairly mild, do you think I should keep the C5 head on the engine, swap on the D0 head from the 170 to get more manifold volume, or go hunt down a D8 head?

alum, just get it, add a 4bbl "easy" TBI system that learns and call it good would look way cool too and give great performance/mileage.

That would be great, but sounds pricey. I don’t think I’m feeling the leaf blowers or fake triples, though.

Thanks for the help,

Dave

PS I’m still interested in suggestions anyone else may have.

 

[MPGmustang]

you can never go wrong with a D8 head, the D0 head should have the bigger carb bore, the main difference's to the heads are the fact of the size of volume, 1240cc for the E0 and 1345+cc for the D8+ (the E0+ head can reach 1420cc) honestly the extra 100 cc i don't think will make that "big" of a difference. the C5 head has 890cc and that's just small...

the main kicker is the valve seats, in 78 the heads were cast with hardened valve seats right into the head for the new fuels, adding these seats increases longevity and strength, BUT IMO, if your not forcing the air I would just stick with the DO head, by the time you wear out that head (300k miles on a fresh rebuild), you'll have enough money saved up to just buy the alum head.

now, if you wanted this to be a racer or a "street/strip" car, then just swap to a 250... lol jk... get the E0 head, and add a super.

the 1bbl, on my engine is more than adequate to daily use, sure it takes 15+ sec's to go a quarter mile, but it just sounds amazing.

as you can see my sig I have the 1bbl with a milder cam, and a header w/dual exhaust, the DUI, I have everything but a bigger carb, I did this on purpose to see how much HP you can make out of the single bbl carb, and I'm quite enjoying the ride. when I'm at car shows it's great to hear everyone talk about how I have all this great sound on a little 1bbl, it's quite amusing. someday I'll swap to the alum with a 4bbl TBI kit... if I ever win the lotto.

for the cam call CI, Mike has great sources. and has work with all these guys.

a header is really fun, it does take up more room, but it's a cool factor, if you have AC on the passenger side, you'll have to modify your alt mounting holes, I have so far added 1.5 inches away from engine for the alt to clear the header.

remember, look at the dyno's on CI's page, you won't get much more than 100HP on a mild build, maybe a milder (fingers crossed) but from what your used to, 30HP is a HUGE difference.
http://www.classicinlines.com/dynoroom.asp

what is your HP goal?

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Dave:

And Welcome to The Forum. I'm confused in what you're asking. Are you looking for induction ideas and suggestions or More- re cam? So far, I understand that you have a '61 Futura with a '65 200 in it with a 2.77 three speed. Do you have any other modifications to the engine? If so what? I assuming that you have a daily driver that can't be down for an extended period, and that you want to maintain a period correct look. You want a reliable, economical, fun to drive car? Well, fill in the picture. What distributor are you using?

In the meantime, I can tell you what I'm planning for a soon to be next project (If I can get it pasted the DF). It is a 1980 Mustang 200 with an SROD trans. It's downsides are a bad exhaust manifold, a carb that lacks tuneability, low compression ratio, a cam with a lob-sided profile and a too high rear end gear ratio. Focusing on the carb/intake, here's what I'm thinking. I will immediately swap the OEM Holley 1946 carb for a Carter RBS from a 70's 250. I will live with this carb for the time being. I will adapt the stock air intake system to maintain a stock appearance. The RBS will add tuneability and increase CFM by about 20. this set-up will suffice while I deal with rear gear ratio and start a spare EO head build that will raise CR, increase flow using stock, OEM valves and mild porting. The Induction part will be modifying it for an Autolite 2100 in a 1.02 size, for economy and power. The exhaust will be a modified '68 manifold along with a single 2" exhaust with a turbo type muffler.

Once the head is ready it will be swapped over in about a day of down time. That's the way I'm planning to go.

While the 3 x 1s set-up is the bom in coolness it can be finicky. The setup can get pretty good mileage with the progressive linkage. The problem will be keeping your foot out of it.

Adios, David

 

[falcon fanatic]

If your car is running alright at the moment, I'd leave the carb swap for last and do exhaust and ignition first. A header and either a single 2-1/4" or a dual 2" exhaust with turbo mufflers or similar (depending on the sound you want), and a duraspark ignition conversion. At first you'll be thrilled with the change, but you'll soon realize that this hemmorraging of money didn't produce nearly the kind of power you where expecting. So it's time for a carb upgrade.

But wait, if you spend the rrridiculous amount of money that Pony is asking for the vaporizer, which I understand is a great carb, you'll only pick up a marginal power boost, although apparently you will gain driveability and economy. The webber can be had for around $65 from stovebolt. Along with a $15 adapter (if you have the small intake head) or more for an adapter from CI, you will get about the same economy as the vaporizer (isn't that something folks use to smoke pot?), a tad more power, and spend a third of the money.

You'll soon realize that this also doesn't make enough power, but at this point you've bought all the bolt-on parts you need to do any kind of head upgrade. A worked over log head will be fantastic with these parts (see the engine section on my website - a work in progress), but I think a CI head would be great too, even with the weber. You can alwasy add that killer 4V injection system down the road

 

[CobraSix]

the main kicker is the valve seats, in 78 the heads were cast with hardened valve seats right into the head for the new fuels

One note on this. Most engines that have been rebuild since the 80s (which a lot of 200s have been) have had the valve seats replaced with hardened seats, so don't shy way from the early ones if it's in good shape. You might find if you go with an Offy set up, you'll have to see which manifold you can buy before you pick a head. The manifolds are different.

Consider doing the ignition and going to a T5 transmission (or even a 4 speed toploader). Getting rid of the 2.77 was probably my 2nd favorite upgrade, first being ignition upgrade. I did the transmission in combination with a cam upgrade and even with a 1V autolite, the car felt so much better.

David is right. The Offy 3x1 is the best in cool factor hands down. The engine sounds like a best. But it can be finicky. I carried around a set of block plates because one time I had a gasket blow out due to a backfire (dizzy nut was loose and it slipped). After that, I kept a set of block off plates just in case in the trunk (along with the old standby points).

 

[jahearne]

I agree with CobraSix. I recommend the T-5 in first and upgrade the rear-end; you will not be disapointed especially if she's running good right now. Electronic ignition is another well worth the investment upgrade. You will have to replace the lom distributer anyways if you upgrade to a different carb that doesn't have SCV, which includes all of them except the Pony Vaporizer.

And this will give you an awesome foundation for your choice of induction. For a daily driver, I'd have to lean towards a two barrel. But nothing looks cooler than a tri-power!!! I did one with Holley glass bowls - what a pain in the a$$ - but it was sure sweet looking. There are folks on here running very depenable tri-powers using Webers one barrel carbs; once you get them set up, you're good to go.

I wonder if I could hookup 3 leaf blowers to a tri-power?!?

 

[chad]

U guys is crazy, the good kind, the kind I like...

 

[rbohm]

8) here is an interesting suggestion you might consider. do the 3x1 bbl conversion, but instead of carbs, use the throttle bodies from a tempo, and use a megasqurit fuel controller to run the injection, and possibly the ignition. the nice thing is you dont have the finicky nature of three carbs to constantly tune, and you get the near tight control over the fuel mixture. the other thin is you dont have to drill any holes other than those to install the tempo throttle bodies. and except for the wiring, the system looks close to period correct.

 

[CobraSix]

I thought about that at one point. The only problem I saw was hood clearance on the front. It was already tight with an 1100 carb and a half height air filter. Maybe a J bend with a side draft TBI?

 

[MustangSix]

I thought about that at one point. The only problem I saw was hood clearance on the front. It was already tight with an 1100 carb and a half height air filter. Maybe a J bend with a side draft TBI?

For a period look, how about a triple carb setup using three SU's? The 90 degree bend idea would solve the hood clearance issue.

 

[1961 Futura]

what is your HP goal?

Is 140 out of line for a daily driver? What’s realistic to get comparable performance to a modern mid-size sedan?

Are you looking for induction ideas and suggestions or More- re cam?

Primarily induction. Once I’ve got that figured out, I’ll have a better idea what to select insofar as my short block is concerned. My basic plan is to put good stuff in the bottom end (Federal Mogul bearings, ARP fasteners, etc.) so it will last, and deck the block to restore the compression lost with modern gaskets.

So far, I understand that you have a '61 Futura with a '65 200 in it with a 2.77 three speed. Do you have any other modifications to the engine? If so what?

Close, the 200 is in the trunk at the moment, under the hood is a ‘68 170 with the aforementioned D0 head. The 170 and the 200 can both be considered stock at the moment, although neither is original to the car.

I assuming that you have a daily driver that can't be down for an extended period, and that you want to maintain a period correct look. You want a reliable, economical, fun to drive car?

Yes, although since the car has a decent-running 170 in it, I have the luxury of building the 200 and swapping it in, rather than having to do engine mods while keeping the car on the road.

Reliable, economical, and fun-to-drive are my biggest criteria, although “fun-to-drive” probably has a slight edge over “economical” at the moment. And under “period-correct look”, the emphasis is on “look”; I’m happy to use modern stuff as long as it doesn’t look out of time for the early- to mid-1960s.

What distributor are you using?

I’m using a conventional (non-LOM) points distributor at the moment, along with a YF carburetor. You suggest replacing a ‘61 Holley with a Carter RBS, but what I’ve read suggests that the YF is a good, tunable carburetor that just wasn’t used on the 250s due to hood clearance. Should I still ditch it for an RBS?

The webber can be had for around $65 from stovebolt. Along with a $15 adapter (if you have the small intake head) or more for an adapter from CI, you will get about the same economy as the vaporizer (isn't that something folks use to smoke pot?), a tad more power, and spend a third of the money.

I didn’t realize the Weber could be had so inexpensively. That mitigates in its favor. There are still the issues of hood clearance or machine work for a direct-mount, however.

Most engines that have been rebuild since the 80s (which a lot of 200s have been) have had the valve seats replaced with hardened seats, so don't shy way from the early ones if it's in good shape. You might find if you go with an Offy set up, you'll have to see which manifold you can buy before you pick a head. The manifolds are different.

Right, my D0 intake is larger and flatter, but the C5 intake is small and round. I believe the D0 and the D8 would use the same Offy adaptor, though, as they’re listed for pre-‘69 and ‘69-up applications (although, bafflingly, not by Summit).

Consider doing the ignition and going to a T5 transmission (or even a 4 speed toploader). Getting rid of the 2.77 was probably my 2nd favorite upgrade, first being ignition upgrade. I did the transmission in combination with a cam upgrade and even with a 1V autolite, the car felt so much better.

The T5 or an SROD are definitely in the picture - although not for a while, due to cost. The real determining factor in which it will be is what parts work their way to me first.

Although I will miss tinkering with points, I’m almost certainly going to go for a Pertronix conversion in the ‘68 distributor. Junkyards around here have been out of the right-era Fords for Duraspark IIs for about 15 years now, and the DUI just looks too pricey for me (plus I’ve never liked the look of HEI-type distributor caps).

here is an interesting suggestion you might consider. do the 3x1 bbl conversion, but instead of carbs, use the throttle bodies from a tempo, and use a megasqurit fuel controller to run the injection, and possibly the ignition

I hear a lot of talk about TBI on these engines, and I’ve often thought about it, but I’m not really very electronically savvy, so I’m a bit gunshy about setting up such an arrangement.

The driveability of EFI is hard to deny, though.

For a period look, how about a triple carb setup using three SU's

Side drafts of any stripe (I’ve thought of motorcycle carbs too), would look very cool and European - but that’s a lot of fabrication. Think they’d be worth it?

Thanks for all the help so far fellows. I do appreciate it.

-Dave

 

[1961 Futura]

Sometimes I like to think in analogies, and last night I was considering the 3x1 setup and how it relates to three deuces. I was then struck by the concept of dual quads, and wondered if dual progressive Webers might be a good compromise between looks, performance, simplicity and economy.

Any thoughts?

-Dave

 

[CobraSix]

The 3x1 will likely be less finicky then dual webbers. Once you go multi carb, it's complicated. 2 carbs versus 3 won't make much difference. Plus, if you do dual carbs, you are going to be doing a lot of custom fabrication. It's been done by others before, so it is definitely doable. However, the Offy comes as a kit requiring less user engineering.

I'd also argue that the 3x1 is more economical, since when idling you are only running on 1 venturi, instead of 2 with dual webbers.