All Small Six Firing order reversed?

[fast64ranchero]

If that is a "Load-O-Matic Distributor it's not worth wasting 1 minute of your time on, just do yourself a favor and upgrade right away. Not one of Fords better ideas and they only used them for two years. I swapped to Sniper EFI and mine ran flawlessly after. If by some chance you pull the timing cover swap out the timing chain to an early chain and gears. I'm pretty sure in 78 they had the timing chain that retarded the cam timing for Smog.. Good luck on your project.

 

[Kritas]

If that is a "Load-O-Matic Distributor it's not worth wasting 1 minute of your time on, just do yourself a favor and upgrade right away. Not one of Fords better ideas and they only used them for two years. I swapped to Sniper EFI and mine ran flawlessly after. If by some chance you pull the timing cover swap out the timing chain to an early chain and gears. I'm pretty sure in 78 they had the timing chain that retarded the cam timing for Smog.. Good luck on your project.

Thanks, that's great info. I hadn't planned to keep the distributor and just wanted to get the car on the road and plan an upgrade path. Good to know you're happy with the Sniper setup. I'm certainly considering going that route.

 

[Kritas]

It looks like what I have is a Mustang that's been pieced back together with miscellaneous (salvage yard) parts. I figured there was a reason that the previous owner sold it after only six months, and this is probably it. He couldn't get the car to run correctly and told me that he thought it was the carb. I'll start checking things to determine what's actually on the car. I guess when people ask, I can tell them it's a 66 through 78 Mustang....

I found this old thread where the OP presented a similar problem. I'm going to take a look at the carb to make sure that it's correct for the head. https://fordsix.com/threads/1978-head-1966-autolite-1100-problem.52909/page-2

At least I'm in the right forum!

 

[Kritas]

This just gets better and better. On a hunch, after reading the thread in my previous post, I pulled the carb again. I felt around inside the bore and it appears that a previous owner mounted the earlier adapter plate below and then stuck an Autolite 1100 on the intake. The bore in the intake and the spacer/carb aren't the same size, and it appears that the Autolite isn't the right carb for the head. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[bubba22349]

Yes you are right an Autolite 1100 is for sure the wrong Carb for that Large Log Head. LOL if they were trying to use that early Carb Spacer on the Large Log Head there is a very good chance that there is a big vacuum leak at the point were its bolted onto the head.

The Large Log Head is really a "Very Big Advantage" over any of the older 1963 1/2 to 1968 200 Six Small Log Heads. Stock any Large Log Head will out Flow even a fully ported early Small Log Head, and with the 1977 up heads like yours there are some other advantages like the biggest stock size Intake valves the only draw back to the 200 / 250 Six Large Log Heads is their much Larger Combustion Chambers. This little problem is very easy to fix just by doing some Milling to bring the compression ratio back around to 9.0 to 9.2 to 1 which is even better than the older 1963 1/2 to 1968 200 six's were stock and you can still use Regular Grade Fuel or you can go even more if you want to go with Mid Grade or Premium Fuel.

I really don't understand people trying to use these small base Carbs on the later Large Log Heads still it is quite common when doing a later Model Engine Swap into an early Model Car. You would need to make something like a custom reversed funnel shaped adapter plate out of some Aluminum plate stock to seal correctly, this is like they are beating their heads against the wall trying to do it any other way. Sure you can also do it like that older post you Linked to above by using one of the 1968 or older Small Log Heads but this is going backwards on the Tech that Ford used on their newer 200 Six's. The truth is your better off and will be way ahead of the game to just leave those old LOM Distributors and early SCV Carbs behind the only time they should be used is by some of those Restorers entering their Car in the Vintage Car Show's and that have to use all those stock factory parts. The results will be that the Car will have more power and run much better using the later model Carb's and Distributor parts especially since they will bolt right on and will only need a simple mod to the throttle linkage for one of the Later 1V Carbs like an Autolite 1101, or Several Carter Models. Or better yet if you want to go to all the way up to a direct mount 2V Carb then it would be better to convert over to a Cable Throttle Linkage setup. These are very simple swaps since you already have a later engine and head that will add much more power and much more enjoyment to a Daily Driver Type Car. Good luck

 

[Kritas]

I agree that it isn't worth putting money into trying to operate with the current setup. I was planning on performing upgrades and it's better to step up and do them now than toss money at a suboptimal powerplant. I may pull the engine to check everything before a plan is finalized. Might need some machine work. I'm thinking about a full Sniper system.

 

[bubba22349]

Are you talking about the 1100 1V or 2300 2V Sniper? Yes if that's the direction you really want to go then you might save some money by going that way now. What makes you think the engine needs any work? Did you pull that Carb Adapter plate off yet and see if there is a Vacuum leak there?

 

[Kritas]

I have no reason to think it needs machine work other than not knowing what shape it's in and wanting to start with a good base. Based on what I've seen so far, I don't have much faith in the builder. However, it's working out and the car is solid structurally. It's worth making into a nice driver.

I'll pull the adapter tomorrow and post.

 

[bubba22349]

Nothing wrong if you really want to pull the engine to disassemble it and do some mods or just check out the condition of all the parts. Still you can get a very good idea into the engines true condition by doing a few tests while its all assembled, like a Compression Test (the tester can usually be barrowed from many of the local auto Parts Houses if you don't have your own for just a returnable deposit). You can do a Cooling System test with Pressure Tester. Another good test is to do a cranking Oil Pressure Test with a manual oil gauge hooked up to the short block. You can also check the condition of the Timing Chain set out by turning the engine over by hand using the Fan Blades (pulling all the spark Plugs out makes it easy) or with else a Ratchet Wrench or Breaker Bar and socket on the crankshafts damper bolt. Turn the engine in same rotation as the firing order stopping it on the TDC Timing Mark. Now with the Distributor Cap off make a chock mark were the Rotor position is. Next turn engine backwards in the opposite direction watching for how long it takes for the Rotor to start to move again then look at the Damper Mark again too at that point the number of degrees between the two will give you a good idea if the timing chain set needs to be replaced. The Electrical system condition can be tested with a Volt Ohm Tester too. Good luck Edited

 

[Kritas]

I have a compression tester and a test is on the list. I'm not going to pull the engine on as whim. I'll check out the other tests that you mentioned.

 

[bubba22349]

Great it sounds like you have a pretty well though out plan of action then!

 

[Kritas]

Let's call it a wish list for now. I still need to investigate and test, then think it through. With ya'lls' help of course!

 

[Kritas]

Bubba was absolutely correct about the vacuum leak beneath the carb. There was no chance of tuning it in the configuration set up by the previous owner(s). Now I'm weighing whether to stick a cheap carb on the car so I can move it around while I do other things to it and drive it a bit. Something like a cheap Carter knockoff. However, I'm thinking that I'd need to update the distributor as well. Or, do I go full-bore and get an EFI setup right now? Hmmm.

After the carb was removed. Note the small-six spacer for early 200 heads.



After removing the spacer, leaving the gasket beneath it, you can clearly see the vacuum leak on the right side.



After removing the gasket to reveal the intake, note the difference in bore size.

 

[drag-200stang]

Bubba is an expert as are others, each with their strong points.
Good thing that adapter job was not seal on a booster on the shuttle.
I build my engines as if it was, not because it is special, but because I am the one paying for it.

 

[Kritas]

Bubba is an expert as are others, each with their strong points.
Good thing that adapter job was not seal on a booster on the shuttle.
I build my engines as if it was, not because it is special, but because I am the one paying for it.

Great point. I know where I want to get the car, and it's not about doing it in a hurry. That's why I was considering pulling the engine-to look it over, update/repair as needed, paint it and the engine compartment, etc. Based on what I've seen, the engine was a pull from another vehicle and slapped together in the Mustang. I don't trust it until it checks out.

I want to take the car back to its original Emberglo color with the black interior and perhaps some black racing stripes. I don't want my nice car stuck on the side of the road because jobs were rushed.

 

[Kritas]

And Bubba, I don't see a tag on the transmission. I'll have to get the car up higher to slip under it further to have another look. It's leaking some fluid. It's the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[bubba22349]

Well you could make yourself a simple Flat Aluminum Plate out of 1/4 to 3/8 inch material to adapt it to the 1977 200 Six Head and then use the stock 1 3/4 inch Carb base Gasket on the bottom side to match and seal to your Large Log Head. Then bolt that stock Carb Plate onto that Flat Plate Adapter using one of the smaller Autolite 1100 Carb base gaskets like they tried to use so it will also seal it to the plate, then you would be able to use the car or at least move it around. There is also one that's made to do this job that you can get at Vintage Inline's too here is the link. I think the Falcon Performance book talked about making a funnel shaped Adapter Plate too. Good luck. Edited https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/1v-carb-adaptor-small-1v-to-large-log

On the Transmission ID Tag stock it is located on the Passenger side of the Trans and is mounted to one of the Intermediate Band Servo Cover bolts these covers also have an ID letter on then like a W etc. Edited.

 

[Frank]

Kritas- welcome. I don't recommend a knock off carb. They average about one in ten being acceptable out of box. It seems to me the last thing you want is a diversion trying to determine if the "new" carb is at fault, or is it some other wonky deal left by the PO. . Quick example of a poorly crafted china-made carb: A new YF for my '79 f100. Ran fine mixture-wise, but the vacuum advance was not activating until moderate throttle, vacuum gauge confirmed what seat-of-pants was telling me. Removed it, and the port in the throttle bore was .02" too high. I solved it by cutting a thin slot in the throttle blade in line with the port. But this sort of thing is unacceptable, and keeps one chasing their tail unnecessarily.

 

[bubba22349]

Hi Kritas, I looked at my last above post again and seen that it was kind of convoluted and didn't say what I was trying to say so I re Edited it and added some to it about the Trans ID. If yours is an Automatic than it's more than likely a C4 and if its the stock on than it would still be a Duel Range (Green Dot) for a 1965 or 1966 Mustang.

 

[Kritas]

Hi Kritas, I looked at my last above post again and seen that it was kind of convoluted and didn't say what I was trying to say so I re Edited it and added some to it about the Trans ID. If yours is an Automatic than it's more than likely a C4 and if its the stock on than it would still be a Duel Range (Green Dot) for a 1965 or 1966 Mustang.

Thanks Bubba. I'm going to put it up on jack stands in a day or so and I'll find the ID then. It's leaking slightly, so that has to be attended to. I'll need the ID data to order a new gasket and filter. It is an automatic, I just don't see the tag on the servo bolt.