Aluminum Head Update 3/13/07

I spent a few hours at the pattern makers on Saturday afternoon. What we decided to do, is to make the first intake universal. So were going to make the intake with a square flange the same size as a Holley square bore carb. Then we will produce adaptors for the different carb options, Holley 2V, Holley 4V, Edlebrock 4V, downdraft Webber, twin side draft Webbers, various throttle bodies, and so on. The adaptors will also allow the carb to be turned 90* so you can install it parallel or perpendicular to the crank.

By doing this, we can use the same intake for numerous applications, which will reduce the overall cost. It also makes it much cheaper to change induction systems later on. All you'll need to do to upgrade from a 2V, to a 4V, or to EFI, is swap adaptors. Were even going to try to design and produce an adaptor for the M90 S/C.

As for the triple intake, we going to try to use the same approach. Will produce the intake so it accepts sidedraft Webers. However, it will also accept a plenum chamber which utalizes a single throttle body (front or rear). Or you could mount triple TBI's, with or without the plenum chamber, thus allowing it to be N/A or boosted. All we need to do, is produce an adaptor to change the bolt patterns. Piece of cake. ;)

On a side note, I also talked to them about producing a new bellhousing for a T5 application. I'm also working on a new heavy duty flex plate for the C4's.
 
wow this is some great news and will definently make things easier/cheaper for everyone and will also help you save space cause you wont need to store whole intakes for different applications but just adapters which are alot smaller
 
PLEASE HELP!!! i dont fully understand, does the new head come fully assembled for the price of $1350, i noticed there was spring and rocker arm options. do i have to pay on top of $1350 or is there some already there? or do i need to buy valves and such and assemble it? what would be the price for running tripple webbers? wouldn't they be side mount? What exactly is KIT A or KIT B? THNX-Josh
 
Josh, I can try answering a few of your questions. Not being a part of the business, I don't know what Kits A&B are, though.

The head comes with a set of valves, but not springs. I'd assume that it doesn't come with valve locks or retainers either.

More significantly, you do need to buy a stud kit as the original headbolts will only work on the spark plug side. Because the head is beefier around its manifold area, the fasteners are longer and Classic Inlines/ARP have made a kit available to suit.

Again, significantly, I believe the intake is priced separately. At the present a triple Weber intake would be used stock only, and probably not over common. Those carbs themselves are pretty dear! :shock:

So you would be looking at costs of buying a head, a spring set, locks and retainers (maybe), head studs and some type 2V intake. That'd be the typical minimum outlay to get started.

Regards, Adam.
 
8)

Wonder if it would be worth it to make a 3 x 1bbl or 2bbl carb intake divided to feed pairs of cylinders to get around cost of side draft or downdraft Webbers?

If going that route probably be cheaper to get the EFI intake.
 
Anlushac11":2m794ole said:
8)

Wonder if it would be worth it to make a 3 x 1bbl or 2bbl carb intake divided to feed pairs of cylinders to get around cost of side draft or downdraft Webbers?

If going that route probably be cheaper to get the EFI intake.
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While a triple 1bbl setup may look really cool in a traditional hot rod sense I seriously doubt that it'll wind up making rational sense to actually go with such a configuration with the new head. There's two (well, two and a half :) ) ways such a setup could be configured on an inline six.

The first is to have 3 identical carbs running fully synchronized with each one separately feeding two cylinders, i.e. the first carb feeds cylinders 1 and 2, the second carb feeds cylinders 3 and 4, and the third carb feeds cylinders 5 and 6. This has several noteworthy issues.

One issue is that it it's a pain to get all three carbs synch'd up and correclly tuned.

Another issue is that you need a complex (and more costly) carb linkage.

Another issue is less obvious. The carb feeding cylinders 3 and 4 is feeding cylinders that are firing 180 degrees of cam rotation apart. The two carbs on the ends, however, are feeding cylinders that are firing first 120 degrees and then 240 degrees of cam rotation apart. That means the two end carbs will be experiencing less even intake strokes and that could have an affect on the way those carbs operate.

Another way to configure a triple 1bbl carb intake would be to have them all feed into a common plenum and have runners from that plenum to all six cylinders. This is the way it works with the original American log manifold heads when people add that triple carb modification to it. You can set this up two different ways -- with all carbs running in synch or with a progressive set up that typically has the center carb operating as a primary and the other two as secondaries. Both have issues, as you might imagine, mostly related to getting the carbs synch'd, tuned and properly configured to provide good fuel economy, good "driveability" and good throttle response and such.

Frankly, given that there will be all new intake manifolds available, a far more rational choice would be to use a single larger 2 or 4 bbl carb, and with this new head I'd lean toward a small 4 bbl, myself.

As for a triple 2 bbl set up, well, that only makes sense to me on an engine this size when set up as an "individual runner" system, where each carb throat feeds its own cylinder, and even that is probably an unnecessary and costly level of complexity. The added complexity of a triple carb set up on a common plenum manifold just doesn't make any sense to me on an engine with 170 to 250 cubic inches. A single 4 bbl can easily feed an engine that size.

Now me, if I was looking for a more exotic induction system I'd go with a multiport EFI setup and based on things I have seen written here that will be a very viable option. They've actually announced at least two or three intakes which they may produce to work with EFI.

The first would be the 4 bbl manifold and that could be set up several different ways. One way would be to simply use a throttle body injection system in place of the carb. That would have to be the easiest approach, though arguably not the best.

Another way to use the 4 bbl manifold would be to add individual injectors to each runner (or to the intake ports on the head) and use a simple throttle body in place of the carb.

Classic Inlines is also talking about an EFI manifold of some sort which would have a common plenum and a mounting point for a throttle body along with injector bosses on the intake runners.

And there's also the chance that an individual runner style triple Weber carb intake will be released which would allow an EFI system to be built around Weber-carb-form-factor throttle body injectors. This would be perhaps the most "exotic" looking of all the naturally aspirated induction systems, especially if velocity stacks were used instead of air cleaners.

But triple 1 bbl carbs? Frankly, that was a sort of a kludge on the old head that was forced into existence by the less than optimal configuration of the cast-on log intake. I seriously doubt you'll see an intake set up for triple downdraft 1 bbl carbs for the new head unless the Aussies already have one for their 2V head that will fit.

I could be wrong about that, however.

:)
 
First, I'll explain the A&B kits. These are kits, which include all the parts needed to install the head, minus the springs, retainers, locks, and seals. The kits include the required studs and gaskets (head, valve cover, exhaust, and intake). The only difference in the kits is the number of studs included. If you already have studs in your current setup, you only need the seven longer studs, which are required on the intake side of the head, due to the intake ports being raise for improved CFM's (Kit B). However, if your not already using studs, then you'll need all fourteen, seven long and seven short (Kit A).

If you were to buy the stud kit and gaskets separately, it would cost $169.50 (studs = $115, head gasket = $30, exhaust gasket =$9, intakes $8, and v/c gaskets $7.50). Verses $145.00 for Kit "A". Kit "B" is $85 as it has only seven studs, washers and nuts, rather than fourteen as in kit "A".

I'm working on retainers and locks now, but don't have prices yet. Once I do, I'll be offering spring kits with one-piece retainers, and locks.

The reason the heads don't come pre-assembled, is due to the different preferences in spring pressures, based on cam profiles. Also due to the fact that some cam companies require the use of their springs to keep the cam warranty valid.

We will also be offering two exhaust valve options, a 1.500 and a 1.565 (which is a custom valve we had produced). All the valves (intake & exhaust) are supplied by SI Valves and are the Port Flow stainless steel series valves.

We will be producing a triple Weber intake, which will use three Weber side draft carbs. However, the primary reason for the triple intake is for those who want to run triple TBI's for maximum airflow and performance. We'll also be offering the TBI's at a reasonable price. I'm still negotiating prices, but the kit (3x TBI's, fuel rails, and air horns or filters) should be around $1299. Maybe less, if I purchase in large quantities.

It should also be noted that the prices may goes up, as my suppliers are raising their prices. The head itself may go up at any time, since the AU dollar is increasing in value daily, whereas the US dollar is going down. Not good. When I was first quoted a price for the heads two years ago, the AU dollar was around 67cents, the last time I looked, it was at 86cents. That may not seem like much, but it amounts to about a hundred bucks per head. The manufacturer is trying to honor his quote, but if it gets any worse he will be forced to raise his price. Therefore, if you are seriously thinking about buying one, a deposit will guaranty the current price.
 
I would like to thank everybody for answering, you have been truely helpful. The problem is that i am in college still and i dont have enough money for all this. from what i am looking at, it will be atleast three grand on the high side. has any body looked at the summit racing catolog at the part OFY-5970? what is it?it is a offenhauser 3 carb intake manifold that is bolted on to the intregal manifold after the intake part of the U.S. Log Head has been drilled and properlly fitted. The information given says that it could use the existing holly 1-V for the center carb but the outer carbs are to be a smaller venturi carbs. what is venturi? is it relivant? is it just simply a regular carb? does anybody have any information to add to this? i want to improve my intake with spending the least amount of money possible, it says "They're designed to equalize fuel distribution to all cylinders, which improves fuel economy, and produces better power with smoother response across the rpm range."would this be a better choice? i understand that triple ace carbs could be tedious, but is there anything better and cheaper? to be honest i like the nostalgic look of the three carbs, but i would like more information about the part. i was wondering if there was anybody out there who has done this set up before or if you have any informaton. what type of carbs would i run on the outsides? THNX-JOSH
 
I66coupe":sin2cdh3 said:
Venturi is a former governor of Minnesota.
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That's Ventura.

Anyhow, smaller venturi carbs flow less air. I'd suggest opening up another thread with your questions so we can keep this one fairly focused. ;)
 
cowboygun":3dv8fnc3 said:
I would like to thank everybody for answering, you have been truely helpful. The problem is that i am in college still and i dont have enough money for all this. from what i am looking at, it will be atleast three grand on the high side. has any body looked at the summit racing catolog at the part OFY-5970? what is it?it is a offenhauser 3 carb intake manifold that is bolted on to the intregal manifold after the intake part of the U.S. Log Head has been drilled and properlly fitted. The information given says that it could use the existing holly 1-V for the center carb but the outer carbs are to be a smaller venturi carbs. what is venturi? is it relivant? is it just simply a regular carb? does anybody have any information to add to this? i want to improve my intake with spending the least amount of money possible, it says "They're designed to equalize fuel distribution to all cylinders, which improves fuel economy, and produces better power with smoother response across the rpm range."would this be a better choice? i understand that triple ace carbs could be tedious, but is there anything better and cheaper? to be honest i like the nostalgic look of the three carbs, but i would like more information about the part. i was wondering if there was anybody out there who has done this set up before or if you have any informaton. what type of carbs would i run on the outsides? THNX-JOSH
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Before Mike was importing Aussie heads and before there was such a thing as Classic Inlines or Ford Six Performance Parts the performance intake for a log head inline was the Offy intake. This is basically the same intake that was used back in early sixties to hop up inline Falcons before Mustangs were even around yet.

Plain and simple the end carbs feed air to the two end cylinders which typically are starved while the two center cylinders run rich.

If I recall correctly you can go to your Autoparts store and ask for a early 60's 1bbl carb for a Falcon (1960-1962?). When you buy the intake it comes with a instruction manula which looks like it was photocopied from a original 1960 manual and it tells you to use something like a Holley model 1908 or something close to that.

Back in the day carbs were referred to by the venturi, ERGO A 2BBL carb was called a 2 venturi and a 4bbl was called a 4 venturi carb. Nowadays 2bbl and 4bbl is the more common usage.

If your a College student dont worry about using fancy fuel injection and siude draft Webers. If you can afford the head go for it and just run a rebuilt 2bbl carb similar to a Holley 2300 series or Motorcraft equivalent.

If you cant afford the Aluminum head then get a port divider for the two center exhaust ports, get stock head ported and polished as best as can done, get a 1bbl openinig to 2bbl carb adapter and run a Motorcraft or Holley 2bbl on that. Headers and a free flowing exhaust of about 2" are recommended too.
 
Anlushac11":26hught2 said:
If your a College student dont worry about using fancy fuel injection and siude draft Webers. If you can afford the head go for it and just run a rebuilt 2bbl carb similar to a Holley 2300 series or Motorcraft equivalent.

If you cant afford the Aluminum head then get a port divider for the two center exhaust ports, get stock head ported and polished as best as can done, get a 1bbl openinig to 2bbl carb adapter and run a Motorcraft or Holley 2bbl on that. Headers and a free flowing exhaust of about 2" are recommended too.
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I contacted Pony Carbs this week and asked about the possiblities of becoming a distributor for their carbs. If I can work it out, we will be offering their Autolite 2100 (2V) and 4100 (4V) series carbs. The 2100 series would be great for most mild builds, whereas the 4100 series (480cfm or 600cfm) carbs will be offered for those with more performance in mind. All three will be offered in packages (cam, lifters, valve train components, assembled cylinder head, studs, gaskets, and intake) and a carb tune to match the complete system. The only optional part would be the rocker assembly.

This was also the first time I visited their website, taking time to look around. While brousing the Q&A section, I found the following statement to be of interest. Especially since I've never supported the 2V adaptors.

Frequently Asked Questions

Question: Can I upgrade my one barrel carb to a two barrel on my six cylinder?

Answer: There is a reason that Ford Motor Company used a one barrel carburetor on six cylinder engines. As it turns out, the Autolite 1100 carburetor that came on most six cylinders came in three different sizes depending on whether your engine was a 144, a 170 or a 200. They even made an 1101 for the 240, 250 and 300 engines. If you do not have the right size one barrel carburetor on your engine the engine is never going to run right, especially at lower speeds (30-50 mph).

There is a company in California that makes a one barrel to two barrel adapter plate. I know that this has been written about on the internet, claiming that it works. However, there are different definitions of “workingâ€￾. If all you do is drive your vehicle at two speeds, stopped and wide open, then it allegedly makes the car a tiny bit faster. Unfortunately, most of us do not drive our cars that way. At the almost $600.00 that it costs, I can tell you that it is a very bad investment.

What nobody tells you is that at part throttle (30-50 mph) there is not enough air velocity (speed of air) to allow the carburetor to function within the laws of physics. At that point there will be no fuel being discharged into the engine, it’s going to go way lean, and there will be surging, hesitations and flat spots. Having studied lots of physics and engineering, I find it curious that anyone looking at taking two “holesâ€￾ worth of “stuffâ€￾, and at a sharp angle, stuffing it back into the one “holeâ€￾ that you started with would make sense to anyone. I guess some people are just very trusting that everything they read on the internet is true.

The bottom line is, to make your six cylinder engine run the best, get the appropriate sized carburetor from Pony Carburetors, the Pertronix igniter to replace the points and condenser and get the port divider plate for between the #3 and #4 exhaust ports. These are the three things you can do to make your car run the best. With these modifications, the car will turn 70-72 mph in the standing quarter mile. If that isn’t fast enough, you should sell the car and buy a V8.
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While I agreed with the part about the 2V adaptor, I had to give them an education on the three things needed to make your car run best. :D

Pics of an assembled head using single springs with dampers, teflon seals, and light weight retainers.

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I would prefer a 325cfm 1bbl carb... :LOL:

That rebuilt 480cfm 4bbl sounds like it would be a sweet setup on a built 250 I6.
 
Having studied lots of physics and engineering, I find it curious that anyone looking at taking two “holesâ€￾ worth of “stuffâ€￾, and at a sharp angle, stuffing it back into the one “holeâ€￾ that you started with would make sense to anyone.
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That whole line of logic is bunk. That would only be true if that manifold openning was the limiting factor on air flow. That is not likely to occur until high rpms. I forget the numbers, but I believe the manifold openning is larger than the venturi of the stock carb. Sections of pipelines are routinely paralleled with another line and teed into the same spot to increse delivery on pipelines, "stuffing" more gas though the one hole.

What nobody tells you is that at part throttle (30-50 mph) there is not enough air velocity (speed of air) to allow the carburetor to function within the laws of physics. At that point there will be no fuel being discharged into the engine, it’s going to go way lean, and there will be surging, hesitations and flat spots.
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More Bunk and scare tactics. At part throttle, the plates are not open all that much. The carb works on pressure differential caused by the engine AND air flow through the carb. At idle, there is little air flow, yet the engine runs apparently defying the "laws of physics" that he studied. It is a matter of properly sizing components and tuning the carb. A big honking 1 BBL can easily have trouble with flat spots, even more so than a progressive Weber 2 bbl. The point where you will see the bog / flat spot is likely to occur when the plates are at full throttle not at part throttle.

I had talked to Pony Carbs many years ago, and it was statements like those that convinced me that they were either ignorant or lacked integrity and would say anything to get you to buy their overpriced merchandise.
Doug
 
overpriced? It's 5 times what the parts store sells them for! Even if it was better on gas, you'd never recoup the intial purchase price.
 
I have a couple of questions, do the heads have hardened valve seats or is/will this be an option? For running on LPG/Propane.
Can I get a bare head delivered from the manufacturer to my place in Australia or do they need to travel to the workshop first for rework?

Im not trying to cut out the middle man just the cost of shipping. I am hoping to get a head next year, trying to be realistic with funds, and convert it to Sequential Gas Injection. I currently have a 250ci 2V with a 350 Holley in a 1969 XW Falcon running dual fuel LPG/ULP, daily driver around 600km per week for work.

Love the work on the head, cant wait to get one.
 
I'm in Adelaide aswell as XWDewar and would like to know the same things. I will also be using the head on dedicated LPG. From what I have heard, the heads are being done by Cylinder Head Innovations in Melbourne (I hope I got that right). I was looking on this company's website and I noticed that they offer CNC (Computer Numerically Controlled) porting for their cylinder heads. Is there any chance of this being offered for the new Aluminium Head? I wonder if there would be any real performance gains from this, given the head has been well redesigned as it is. By the way, the pictures of the new head look very nice indeed. I look forward to owning one :D
 
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