All Small Six No spark 68 200

This relates to all small sixes
E

Elijah Gerke

New member
Well I overcame the misfire from the bad gas and about 3 weeks later another one popped up, but this time it was something else. Ignition, it would be fine at some times and horrible at others. Eventually it became if I layed on the throttle more than halfway it would spit and then die then if I let back off it would magically restart itself. I tested compression, fuel, air, and vacuum. One day when I had some free time I started to tackle the problem and when I gave it more than halfway to test it this time it died for good. So I get it home and it will not spark at all. It will turn over but no spark. I immediately looked at my points and condenser. And figured I may as well replace them because I had no "service history" on the car so then I made sure all of my plugs, wires, cap, and rotor were good. Tried firing it and nothing. This led me to believe the coil was shot so I was recommended this COIL wired it all up and still nothing, only reading about 5.5 volts at coil in the on position and about 12.5 volts at battery I know this is low but it should still give me a little spark right apparently no. I redid my ground wires to the distributor and part of the + wires to the coil. With the - side of the coil off I read 12.5 volts at the coil in the on position. But whenever I wire up the - side it goes back down to 5.5. When cranking I get between 5.5-8 volts with no spark. I have tried my best and now it is my time to come to you guys.

Btw
Points, cap, rotor,and condenser are all Napa or Echlin and points are gapped to .027 in the highest position on the rubbing block.
Any help would be greatly appriciated- Gerke
 
Did you drain out all the old fuel clean the tank and replace fuel filters and then put fresh fuel in it? You will have the correct operating voltage of 6 to 8 volts with the ignition key turned to the on / run position which it sounds like you do have. When the key is turned to start you should see about the same as your battery voltage. Check the condition of the I Terminal wires connection on the starter solenoid that its clean and snug. Check the coil + positive wire connection is clean and snug too. You might need the make or buy a completely new distributor point to coil negative wire, as well as a new wire from the ignition switch near the resistor and out to the positive coil post. I have had these wires be broken inside the insulation were its hard to find and would get intermittent running and stopping just as you are experiencing. Sometimes if you bend the wires back and forth you will get the wire to have continuity. Best of luck
 
Yes sir I did drain the tank and lines along with a rebuild of the carbutrator. I will completly redo the - ignition to the distributor. And I will start tracking down that resistor wire and have new wiring from there. Do you happen to know what gage wire i should use for the positive and negative?
 
Thats great on the fuel system. The stock wires are about a 16 gauge you might slso be able to use 14 gauge. The resistor is in the Pink wire behind the ignition switch starting around 5 to 6 inches behind the ignition switch usally the wiring inside the car is good the damaged coil wires i have found were just after the firewall plug area. Also keep the Battery fully charged to. Good luck in the hunt.

You might also check those firewall plugs that they are clean and that they are snug. There are electrical spray cleaners or you can use small wire bushes like maybe from a gun cleaning kit or some made for electrical or for plumbing use too.
 
You could replace almost the whole coil posative wire by just leaving only about 1 1/2 to 2 inches in front of the firewall plug on the engine compartment side to contect to, You are very welcome Elijah Gerke, hope you find the cause.
 
Hi, the Edelbrock coil may require 12 volts. It is easy to temporarily hot wire the coil by running a jumper wire from the positive battery terminal to the positive coil post. If you have a tach in the car disconnect it for now because a defective tach can cause all your problems. Good luck
 
Okay so I redid the whole wiring and got some more volts but still no spark so I rummaged around and got the multimeter out and started testing the coil and new condenser. The coil had no output ohms but it did have 1.4 as advertised through the positive and negative. So it's junk and on the condenser I got nothing so I will take both of those back tomorrow and hopefully it will fire up. But it was good to redo the wiring because the PO did some shotty wiring and even split a wire in 2 to get 6 volts :oops:and I assume this was shorting out occasionally.
 
The condenser will not show resistance once it is charged to the output voltage of the meter.
 
Elijah Gerke said:
Points, cap, rotor,and condenser are all Napa or Echlin and points are gapped to .027 in the highest position on the rubbing block.
Any help would be greatly appriciated- Gerke
Click to expand...
That is a wide points gap, especially if the rubbing block has high mileage. It may be right for your application, I don't know. But I never set points over .010" back in the day. As the rubbing block that opens the points wears down with age, the correct points gap diminishes with it. A dwell meter will be helpful here. Otherwise, once it's running if it fires well at low RPM but misses at high RPM, the point gap is too wide.
 
Do you have 12 volts to the coil while cranking the engine?
If not check the solenoid "I" wire for 12 volts while cranking.
The "I" wire bypasses the coil resistor wire while cranking.
The point gap should be .025 on your 200 six. The dwell should be 37-42 .



 
Elijah Gerke said:
Okay so I redid the whole wiring and got some more volts but still no spark so I rummaged around and got the multimeter out and started testing the coil and new condenser. The coil had no output ohms but it did have 1.4 as advertised through the positive and negative. So it's junk and on the condenser I got nothing so I will take both of those back tomorrow and hopefully it will fire up. But it was good to redo the wiring because the PO did some shotty wiring and even split a wire in 2 to get 6 volts :oops:and I assume this was shorting out occasionally.
Click to expand...
OK. You've done all these major tweaks to the ignition system- excellent. Now please do one much simpler test: set your points to .012", and your car will start at once. The points are too wide, and that is the issue from the beginning. Forget the book or opinions-: just try it. $20 says it fires right off. .
 
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Frank said:
OK. You've done all these major tweaks to the ignition system- excellent. Now please do one much simpler test: set your points to .012", and your car will start at once. The points are too wide, and that is the issue from the beginning. Forget the book or opinions-: just try it. $20 says it fires right off. .
Click to expand...
1968 Mustang 200 six point gap is .027Point gap 1968 200.JPG
A .012 gap will create too much dwell. The points may overheat and burn. The coil may over heat. The initial timing will be retarded.
A narrower .012 gap gives more dwell. Excessive dwell means that the points close too soon after opening, cutting off the magnetic field collapse before it delivers all its energy.

 
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78_200_C4 said:
1968 Mustang 200 six point gap is .027View attachment 10230
A .012 gap will create too much dwell. The points may overheat and burn. The coil may over heat. The initial timing will be retarded.
A narrower .012 gap gives more dwell. Excessive dwell means that the points close too soon after opening, cutting off the magnetic field collapse before it delivers all its energy.

Click to expand...
Yes, sir. you are correct. But as the rubbing block wears, that spec is reduced. All engines had points the first decade I had vehicles. The gap was directly relative to the mileage and age/ maintenance of the rubbing block. A dwell meter is the only accurate way to determine the precise setting. The book setting will not be accurate on a 50 year old vehicle with the factory distributor. With multiple vehicles and thousands of miles of driving, I had correct dwell with as little as 10 thou on several vehicles. On these vehicles, the factory setting did not close the points enough to make any spark.
LOGIC: this man's engine was running until he changed the points. He has carefully examined and tweaked every other ignition component. My wager remains: it will fire with reduced points gap, and if it doesn't, you're in on getting $20 from me too. I'm that confident this is the issue.
 
Elijah Gerke said:
Okay so I redid the whole wiring and got some more volts but still no spark so I rummaged around and got the multimeter out and started testing the coil and new condenser. The coil had no output ohms but it did have 1.4 as advertised through the positive and negative. So it's junk and on the condenser I got nothing so I will take both of those back tomorrow and hopefully it will fire up. But it was good to redo the wiring because the PO did some shotty wiring and even split a wire in 2 to get 6 volts :oops:and I assume this was shorting out occasionally.
Click to expand...
Hi Elijah, Glad to hear you that you have fixed your wiring to the Distributor and the coil and are seeing better voltage. That's excellent! Along with other good tips that you are receiving from other site members I will add some more ideas too.

I always will and use a dwell meter during a tune up to get the point settings right onto the factory specs the engine then runs much better and it also will gets its best fuel economy. But in some emergency cases after working on these older Ford's I learned a few tricks starting all the way back to my first one a 1928 Model A. I could also set the points just by my eye to get an engine running again if it quit while I was driving it. Another good way is to use a business card to get a point setting that is very close and that will also get you back home again. I had one car a 1961 ford Thunderbird that I drove to collage and everywhere else back then, it would run great until those points finally closed up. I also carried few basic hand tools so I could get it running again and then back home again, got to where I could do that quick repair on it in about 5 min.

In rereading you first post today the One thing I should of brought up in my above posts regrading your engine sputtering as you were driving it and trying to give it some more gas. I have seen this happen many times on the older point type cars and trucks and its usually due to a very worn out top distributor bushing this allows Distributors shaft excessive movement causing the point dwell angle to change so much that it can shut the engine off. I think from your description that you are probably going to need a rebuilt Distributor. To test for this type of wear when I was doing a tune up I always checked the condition of that top bushing it is really easy to do. Before changing out a set of points and with the points set on the high point of the distributor cam I would push on the rotor towards the engine and then pull back on the distributors rotor watching for changes in the point gap. In really bad cases you can feel a lot of slop in that upper bushing too. You can also see a very worn distributor bushing with a dwell meter hooked up and when you raise the engines RPM a little the points dwell angle starts dropping off quickly. By the way on the condenser's if you happen to find that your old set of points isn't transferring metal (pitting) from one side to another than that condenser is at the perfect rating spec. With a really good condenser like that there isn't any need to change it out with the points. In many cases today lots of the condensers are of a very poor quality, also make sure the condenser is mounted snugly to the point plate too. I have a hunch that your Eldenbrock Coil is not the right for your application you would need one that is designed for use with an external resistor wire like your car has or with an external ballast resistor. Otherwise you would need to remove or unhook the resistor wire to run a full 12 volts to the coil as B Ron Co mentioned in his above post. Best of luck
 
Frank said:
Yes, sir. you are correct. But as the rubbing block wears, that spec is reduced. All engines had points the first decade I had vehicles. The gap was directly relative to the mileage and age/ maintenance of the rubbing block. A dwell meter is the only accurate way to determine the precise setting. The book setting will not be accurate on a 50 year old vehicle with the factory distributor. With multiple vehicles and thousands of miles of driving, I had correct dwell with as little as 10 thou on several vehicles. On these vehicles, the factory setting did not close the points enough to make any spark.
LOGIC: this man's engine was running until he changed the points. He has carefully examined and tweaked every other ignition component. My wager remains: it will fire with reduced points gap, and if it doesn't, you're in on getting $20 from me too. I'm that confident this is the issue.
Click to expand...
It may not even be a point problem. He hasn't measured the cranking voltage to the coil. You don't need to tell me about rubbing block wear or dwell. I was adjusting points back in the late 1960's. " Like he said: "One day when I had some free time I started to tackle the problem and when I gave it more than halfway to test it this time it died for good. So I get it home and it will not spark at all. It will turn over but no spark."

It had no spark. It died before he replaced the points.
He could have more than one problem and probably does. Believe what you want and I will do the same.
 
78_200_C4 said:
It may not even be a point problem. He hasn't measured the cranking voltage to the coil. You don't need to tell me about rubbing block wear or dwell. I was adjusting points back in the late 1960's. " Like he said: "One day when I had some free time I started to tackle the problem and when I gave it more than halfway to test it this time it died for good. So I get it home and it will not spark at all. It will turn over but no spark."

It had no spark. It died before he replaced the points.
He could have more than one problem and probably does. Believe what you want and I will do the same.
Click to expand...
I gotcha man. I didn't mean to produce offence. My apologies. Ditto on setting points in the 60's. I came on a bit too strong, wasn't intended to challenge what's being done. . . Guess my own memories of working thru the same issues (1960's- 70's) and discovering the rubbing block as culprit caused me to over react. :)
 
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Attachments

  • Ford Six Points Dist. (Medium).JPG
    Ford Six Points Dist. (Medium).JPG
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Sorry, all for not responding lately I recently had a death in the family that I had to attend to and the car had to be put on the backburner for a little while. I have read all your responses. That Edelbrock coil was bad and would not give spark so I Got a Bluestreak coil. I am now getting spark out of the coil and coil wire. I tested for play in the upper bearing and got no play. I tested the points by having the car in the ON position and had the points closed and opened them with a screwdriver. I saw no spark so I figured with a spark at coil and out of coil wire, there was something in the dizzy. I started messing the screwdriver around and found a voltage and got a nice clean blue/white line of electricity to the screwdriver. So I am going to assume there is a bad ground somewhere but I have an inclination it's at point D in the photo. I am going to replace Point D. Also in the Photo, you will be able to see the worn rubbing block and its condition of it. Sad to say eventually here soon will need a new Distributor.
In person the rubbing block does have some more "definition" to it šŸ˜‚ I think that setting the points to .012 or .015 would be a good idea.InkedIMG_4979_LI.jpg
 
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