dydaktix
Active member
This guy is building a head for the 200 based on the Toyota 2JZ head.
New guy (Engine Gremlin) working on AL head
- Thread starter dydaktix
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aussie7mains
Famous Member
Get a barra, this idea is approaching the problem by the most difficult path. A 4litre Barra will wipe the floor of this 200six at MUCH lower cost. If you dont want to got to a Barra, you can use the SOHC version of the six.
Jmustang_65
Well-known member
Not mine just sharing from VM6 facebook group.
OK Folks! Time for an update as well as some questions for the group.
First for the update. Cylinder head design is progressing smoothly. One of the decisions that was made was to use the same intake port pattern/geometry and mounting configuration for the 2JZ intake manifold (It's an oval). The reason for this is be able to bolt on a variety of aftermarket intake manifolds depending on what the end user wants to use. That being said, the decision was also made to design a simple 4 barrel intake manifold that uses this same port design and bolt pattern so that the folks who want to stick with a carbureted configuration, TBI configuration, supercharged configuration, 1V, 2V, 4V or whatever style they currently employ, they can do so provided they get the new intake manifold. Keep in mind that the priorities of this new head are:
Now for the first of three questions. I had already asked this in my last video going over some of the design rationale of this head, but I'll ask it explicitly here. At the back of the block at the last main bearing and last cam bearing, the oil passages form a sort of love triangle not seen anywhere else in the block where the oil passage that comes down from the head and intercepts the cam bearing. The weird part is that this passage actually extends further down (after going around the cam itself) to connect with the main oil supply passage. Does anyone have any insight into why this might be? My initial thoughts are to provide more oil pressure and flow to the head.
Now for the second question. I've been playing with the cooling passages in the head, including the passages on the deck face. So if any of you are familiar with the 2JZ, you'll know it's significantly wider than than the 200 and not being a pushrod engine, doesnt have to make room (AKA holes) in the block for pushrods and their movement, meaning the deck cooling passages have a relatively decent amount of room to be there. The 200 doesn't have that luxury and I have honestly been considering removing the deck coolant passages I have rough modeled in at the moment when I start to look at the amount of space left for a head gasket, sleeving, o-ringing the cylinders, etc and letting the coolant do the work from internal passages in the head. What are your guys' thoughts on the necessity of the deck coolant passages since the 200 didn't have them? I'd also be interested to hear your thoughts on this with respect to aluminum AND cast iron.
The last question concerns the oil pump. Now it is a goal of mine to get rid of the cam shaft and put in a dummy cam for stiffening so the timing chain and timing chain cover can be removed and all replaced with a belt drive system for the DOHC. However, this leaves the question of how to drive the oil pump and distributor. I had considered adding a pulley wheel to the dummy cam and leaving the distributor gear there, which would then drive the oil pump and distributor. However, the front of that cam is not meant to keep oil inside the block. Any suggestion on this front to perhaps seal that dummy cam? I'd personally like to do away with the oil pump and distributor altogether but I know that will alienate a lot of people so it's here to stay. I haven't looked into this problem that much yet if I'm being honest but it's been on my mind and I wanted to get some suggestions from the group before it starts banging down my door. Maybe a 2JZ-esque front plate oil pump design to replace the timing chain cover and old school oil pump?
Excited to hear your thoughts.
Jon
OK Folks! Time for an update as well as some questions for the group.
First for the update. Cylinder head design is progressing smoothly. One of the decisions that was made was to use the same intake port pattern/geometry and mounting configuration for the 2JZ intake manifold (It's an oval). The reason for this is be able to bolt on a variety of aftermarket intake manifolds depending on what the end user wants to use. That being said, the decision was also made to design a simple 4 barrel intake manifold that uses this same port design and bolt pattern so that the folks who want to stick with a carbureted configuration, TBI configuration, supercharged configuration, 1V, 2V, 4V or whatever style they currently employ, they can do so provided they get the new intake manifold. Keep in mind that the priorities of this new head are:
- MAXIMUM potential performance
- Backwards compatibility and aftermarket compatibility
Now for the first of three questions. I had already asked this in my last video going over some of the design rationale of this head, but I'll ask it explicitly here. At the back of the block at the last main bearing and last cam bearing, the oil passages form a sort of love triangle not seen anywhere else in the block where the oil passage that comes down from the head and intercepts the cam bearing. The weird part is that this passage actually extends further down (after going around the cam itself) to connect with the main oil supply passage. Does anyone have any insight into why this might be? My initial thoughts are to provide more oil pressure and flow to the head.
Now for the second question. I've been playing with the cooling passages in the head, including the passages on the deck face. So if any of you are familiar with the 2JZ, you'll know it's significantly wider than than the 200 and not being a pushrod engine, doesnt have to make room (AKA holes) in the block for pushrods and their movement, meaning the deck cooling passages have a relatively decent amount of room to be there. The 200 doesn't have that luxury and I have honestly been considering removing the deck coolant passages I have rough modeled in at the moment when I start to look at the amount of space left for a head gasket, sleeving, o-ringing the cylinders, etc and letting the coolant do the work from internal passages in the head. What are your guys' thoughts on the necessity of the deck coolant passages since the 200 didn't have them? I'd also be interested to hear your thoughts on this with respect to aluminum AND cast iron.
The last question concerns the oil pump. Now it is a goal of mine to get rid of the cam shaft and put in a dummy cam for stiffening so the timing chain and timing chain cover can be removed and all replaced with a belt drive system for the DOHC. However, this leaves the question of how to drive the oil pump and distributor. I had considered adding a pulley wheel to the dummy cam and leaving the distributor gear there, which would then drive the oil pump and distributor. However, the front of that cam is not meant to keep oil inside the block. Any suggestion on this front to perhaps seal that dummy cam? I'd personally like to do away with the oil pump and distributor altogether but I know that will alienate a lot of people so it's here to stay. I haven't looked into this problem that much yet if I'm being honest but it's been on my mind and I wanted to get some suggestions from the group before it starts banging down my door. Maybe a 2JZ-esque front plate oil pump design to replace the timing chain cover and old school oil pump?
Excited to hear your thoughts.
Jon
One has been under development on to a 250 Block for little over a year. By Australian Site member "Cox Custom Mechanical", you can see some of his pictures of the mock up here at this link. https://fordsix.com/threads/dohc-250ci.84494/#post-679876
On his second priority for the new head, Backwards compatibility and aftermarket compatibility, his current design would allow the use of US200 headers. This places the 3 and 4 cylinder exhaust ports together instead of equal distance to the other cylinders (see Australia 4.1 Crossflow and Barra headers for comparison). This will hinder his first priority, MAXIMUM potential performance.
Attachments
The 3 and 4 exhaust next to each other is a bad deal especially turbo charged, too much heat concentrated, and the head gasket wants to burn through between 3 and 4. They would be better off making the head so that barra intake and exhaust fit. The spacing should be the same. Isn't the 2jz at a smaller bore center.
IMHO, I think he's trying to reinvent the wheel. He stated in one of his videos the reason going with the 2JZ head is that the engine is capable of making a heck of a lot more power compared to the Barra and the 2JZ has cam phasers. It's not all the head that helps make all that power. Smaller bore, shorter stroke, forged crank, and forged rods is what helps the 2JZ engine rev to the moon where it makes all that extra power over the Barra.
The Barra has oval intake ports like the 2JZ, and cam phasers like the 2JZ. He's overlooking all of the engineering that went into the long stroke Barra. Vendors in Australia all ready sell 4Bbl intakes, headers, and cams to upgrade the Barra. His head will have to have one-off intakes and cams to go with it.
You're right drag-200Stang, the 2JZ has a smaller bore spacing than the US200/Barra so his design will have to be stretched to match the 4.08 bore spacing. When he gets that design finished you know what he'll have...
A Barra head with siamese exhaust ports on cylinder 3 and 4.
The Barra has oval intake ports like the 2JZ, and cam phasers like the 2JZ. He's overlooking all of the engineering that went into the long stroke Barra. Vendors in Australia all ready sell 4Bbl intakes, headers, and cams to upgrade the Barra. His head will have to have one-off intakes and cams to go with it.
You're right drag-200Stang, the 2JZ has a smaller bore spacing than the US200/Barra so his design will have to be stretched to match the 4.08 bore spacing. When he gets that design finished you know what he'll have...
A Barra head with siamese exhaust ports on cylinder 3 and 4.
aussie7mains
Famous Member
If you want a shorter stroke than the 3.91inches, people are using specialist cranks (UK I think) they bring it down to 3.7litres, square dimensions. The stock long stroke Barra will rev to around 7000rpm. Using the 2jz head is IMO impossible, you would need to make a head from scratch, drawings, patterns casting boxes, lotsa machine work. And the risk that something is wrong (cracking porousity etc etc) it would never turn a profit. Barra, comes ready to go, they are going for $350 down here!!!! Proven thing, tonnes of power. Barra is 195kw to DIN, running unleaded and meeting all emissions, totally reliable. What more could you ask for, even paying to get parts in USA, you would still be miles ahead. Engine Gremlin, IMO is a bit of a Gunna.
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You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink.
He is making a head from scratch: drawings, patterns, casting boxes, and lotsa machine work. The 2JZ head is being used as the model because he thinks it will produce more horsepower than the Barra head. If you look at the 2JZ and Barra heads side by side, there is not that much difference between them. His assumption is the head makes the difference.
aussie7mains
Famous Member
I dont see how a 2jz could make more power/torque than a Barra, the barra will have bigger valves simple because its feeding a 4litre engine. His perogative of course, I just dont see why anyone wouldnt take the easy path. As to having the heads side by side, almost all DOHC 4V engines look similar, the Barra is much bigger. You can get an aftermarket barra block now, but costly.
Firepower354
Famous Member
What if two guys hold it's head in the water, and a third tightly seals his lips below the tail and inhales? That's about how I view this attempt
Firepower354
Famous Member
I had an opportunity to look over a pre-production Hurricane head, and like many modern heads, groups up the exhaust ports for manifold-less turbo mounting.
Firepower354
Famous Member
Making a Barra-based head, that fits unmodded 200 blocks, would allow using existing cams, headers, manifolds, covers, ad nauseam.
And remaining within the Ford lil six lineage seems like Mustang guys would appreciate more than a Toyota-topped 200?
Slanting the exhausts to match the oddball SB6 headers, and tilting inlets to match Too-Jazzy intakes, are not good compromises, IMSLTHO.
Basing the design, using the premise that the Toyota guys are making more power, at the extreme limits, then crippling it with plumbing, and putting it on a much less robust block... I think the JZ/RB, and now even Barra top enders, are running billet aluminum blocks anyway.
And remaining within the Ford lil six lineage seems like Mustang guys would appreciate more than a Toyota-topped 200?
Slanting the exhausts to match the oddball SB6 headers, and tilting inlets to match Too-Jazzy intakes, are not good compromises, IMSLTHO.
Basing the design, using the premise that the Toyota guys are making more power, at the extreme limits, then crippling it with plumbing, and putting it on a much less robust block... I think the JZ/RB, and now even Barra top enders, are running billet aluminum blocks anyway.
I am a huge advocate of people doing different things and trying different approaches.
That being said, it seems to me that all of the effort to do this would, at best, result in a product with a small market, that would probably be disproportionately expensive and require a lot of individual effort to make it work. This may sound like heresy, especially on this forum, but I have to think that by the time all of this is done, assuming a comprehensive solution eventually exists - that installing a Barra or 2JZ (with everything already tested and proven) would be less expensive and much more straightforward alternative.
Now, if someone wanted to find a way to install a 6 speed manual transmission from an Inifinity G35 behind a 200/250 or 300, that would seem like a pretty cool project. Please don't bash - again, I love one-off projects.
That being said, it seems to me that all of the effort to do this would, at best, result in a product with a small market, that would probably be disproportionately expensive and require a lot of individual effort to make it work. This may sound like heresy, especially on this forum, but I have to think that by the time all of this is done, assuming a comprehensive solution eventually exists - that installing a Barra or 2JZ (with everything already tested and proven) would be less expensive and much more straightforward alternative.
Now, if someone wanted to find a way to install a 6 speed manual transmission from an Inifinity G35 behind a 200/250 or 300, that would seem like a pretty cool project. Please don't bash - again, I love one-off projects.
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Jmustang_65
Well-known member
It's been done with the Datsun L series so shouldn't be that difficult but, then there's also more aftermarket support for Nissan/Datsun.