200ci improving a 200 overseas

[henkm]

hi

Head: c9de 6090 m
Block: c6de 6015 b (2x) (currently in the car and a spare) c8de 6015b (spare, locked up)
Carb: motorcraft 2150
trans: 5 speed manual (not a tremec)


first a quick introduction: I'm Henk and I live in the Netherlands. A few years back i bought a 1968 mustang hardtop with a 200 automatic , now that I'm almost done restoring the car I want to go in and rebuild the engine. Along the way I bought another mustang (rustang) almost identical to the one I had, only difference was It had a manual, so it opened up the way to get a 5 speed installed.

First I only wanted to rebuild the 200, but i've been looking around here and decided it would be a good idea to do some modifications along the way (my wallet doensn't think so ). That turned into getting a 5 speed to bolt behind it, which turned into fully hopping up, without buying a OZ head. The plan is to get the most out of the engine as possible with the head i got. It will be a cruise car, so I wont make a lot of miles with it.

The head on the car was just a original small log, but if I understood correctly a 250 large log head with the large valves would be the best thing before getting a OZ head. But getting such a head here in the Netherlands is next to impossible and getting one in the USA and shipped here would cost me way to much. But the impossible happened and after looking for quite some time one popped up for sale this week and I immediately bought it.

So after some reading I don't really know what is possible and what not. So here are the things I think I need to do:

Head:
The head needs to be milled 0.030 to get the compression ratio back up, I dont know if this also accounts for the new style headgaskets I read about, some more information about this would be very helpfull. .
I will be doing the 2v conversion and putting bigger valves in. But I got a bit confused after reading some posts about installing bigger valves. Someone said you dont need hardened valve seats if you just want to cruise around, others said it is definitely needed. So I could use some information on this and which valves would be best. For the rockers, I need adjustable rockers when the head is machined.

Carb:
I got a 2150 from a 1970's v8 of some kind laying around, is this a good choice to put on, or do I need a better one for more power or efficiency?

Camshaft:
I don't know anything about camshafts and after reading I still don't know what would be the best one for my build. I read the 264 110H would be a good choice, but i don't know for sure.

Ignition
As for the ignition, I currently use a pertonix, but I see some guys use HEI or DUI distributors. I guess they are better, but is there a big difference between them and a the pertonix unit?

Transmission
I will be installing a 5 speed transmission, but not a Tremec. It is a european ford t9 5 speed. Some guy in the Netherlands did this and posted how to do it on the dutch Mustang forum, but he has vanished a few years ago and nobody knows what happened, the car and owner just dissappeard. It will be interesting figuring out how to make it all fit.


please keep in mind I'm in the Netherlands, this is the land of the ford v6 cologne engines, I'm the only one as far as I know building a 200 like this. So doing this is quite difficult with regards to getting parts and information. Please dont go too hard on me for asking so many things. Links to other good posts would be very appreciated.

By the way, friends of my call me stupid for not putting a v8 in it, but I think this is a damn lot cooler.

thank you for taking the time to read all this.

Henk

 

[DoctorC]

Looks to me like you know what you're doing already. If you want additional reading, the tech archive above is a great resource. (https://fordsix.com/ci/Tech.html).
Edit <I had looked into getting a large log head for myself as well. They'll ship them over, but it'll cost a pretty penny. If you dont have the 200 manual they sell on VI website, i recommend getting it. Well worth it!>

Good luck from France!

 

[henkm]

Thank you so much!, for some reason I haven't seen the tech archive, this is awesome instead of searching in the forums. I guess I have something to do this weekend ;-)
I will try to make some updates as I go along.

 

[bubba22349]

hi

Head: c9de 6090 m
Block: c6de 6015 b (2x) (currently in the car and a spare) c8de 6015b (spare, locked up)
Carb: motorcraft 2150
trans: 5 speed manual (not a tremec)


first a quick introduction: I'm Henk and I live in the Netherlands. A few years back i bought a 1968 mustang hardtop with a 200 automatic , now that I'm almost done restoring the car I want to go in and rebuild the engine. Along the way I bought another mustang (rustang) almost identical to the one I had, only difference was It had a manual, so it opened up the way to get a 5 speed installed.

First I only wanted to rebuild the 200, but i've been looking around here and decided it would be a good idea to do some modifications along the way (my wallet doensn't think so ). That turned into getting a 5 speed to bolt behind it, which turned into fully hopping up, without buying a OZ head. The plan is to get the most out of the engine as possible with the head i got. It will be a cruise car, so I wont make a lot of miles with it.

The head on the car was just a original small log, but if I understood correctly a 250 large log head with the large valves would be the best thing before getting a OZ head. But getting such a head here in the Netherlands is next to impossible and getting one in the USA and shipped here would cost me way to much. But the impossible happened and after looking for quite some time one popped up for sale this week and I immediately bought it.

So after some reading I don't really know what is possible and what not. So here are the things I think I need to do:

Head:
The head needs to be milled 0.030 to get the compression ratio back up, I dont know if this also accounts for the new style headgaskets I read about, some more information about this would be very helpfull. .
I will be doing the 2v conversion and putting bigger valves in. But I got a bit confused after reading some posts about installing bigger valves. Someone said you dont need hardened valve seats if you just want to cruise around, others said it is definitely needed. So I could use some information on this and which valves would be best. For the rockers, I need adjustable rockers when the head is machined.

Carb:
I got a 2150 from a 1970's v8 of some kind laying around, is this a good choice to put on, or do I need a better one for more power or efficiency?

Camshaft:
I don't know anything about camshafts and after reading I still don't know what would be the best one for my build. I read the 264 110H would be a good choice, but i don't know for sure.

Ignition
As for the ignition, I currently use a pertonix, but I see some guys use HEI or DUI distributors. I guess they are better, but is there a big difference between them and a the pertonix unit?

Transmission
I will be installing a 5 speed transmission, but not a Tremec. It is a european ford t9 5 speed. Some guy in the Netherlands did this and posted how to do it on the dutch Mustang forum, but he has vanished a few years ago and nobody knows what happened, the car and owner just dissappeard. It will be interesting figuring out how to make it all fit.

please keep in mind I'm in the Netherlands, this is the land of the ford v6 cologne engines, I'm the only one as far as I know building a 200 like this. So doing this is quite difficult with regards to getting parts and information. Please dont go too hard on me for asking so many things. Links to other good posts would be very appreciated.

By the way, friends of my call me stupid for not putting a v8 in it, but I think this is a damn lot cooler.

thank you for taking the time to read all this.

Henk

Hi Henk, you have some good things Planed for your car build up, I will take a shot in helping you with some more info.

So the Head that you located (some Pictures of the Combustion Chambers would be helpful) but in general any of the 1969 to 1983 Ford 200 or 250 Heads are much better Flowing than any of the pervious 1963 1/2 to 1968 Small Log Heads. Your 1969 Head stock doesn't have the Larger 1.75 inch Intake Valves though that Ford started using in all the 1977 as well as all the newer Heads. You could even go up to a 1.80 Inch Intake if you need to replace all the Valves anyway and most will also use a bigger 1.50 Inch Exhaust Valve for better Flow to.

That Carb is a good one to use. The best way to do a 2V carb install on a Large Log Head is to do the Direct Mount (the Flat Top Large Logs are best for this Mod), however you can still can get decent results with a lower cost by using one of the better 2V to 1V Carb adapters such as Vintage Inline's or several others. Also by opening up the Log Heads intake Carb Hole to a 2 inch from its current 1 3/4 inch size there are some people that even gone up to 2 1/8 inch opening. Next if you do a nice Radius on the bottom edge of the Carb Hole opening of 3/16, ¼ inch or maybe even as much as 5/16 inch for those sides leading into the long lengthwise section of the Log this can help the Air Fuel Mixture to turn the corner into that longest part of the Log. These two above operations can be done yourself with only a few basic tools. The stock untouched Large Log Heads are usually 62 CC's but you should CC yours so you know were exactly were your starting from. Generally it will take roughly a .075 mill cut for most of the stock untouched late model log heads to get them down to 52 CC Combustion Chamber. Again there is one 1969 to 70 large log head that was used on the 170's that has a smaller Combustion Chamber so its important to know its CC's before you do any Milling.

What Compression Ratio are you planning to run? I know you won't have the Fuels we have they should be better but here we can use up to a 9.2 to Compression Ratio with the cheapest 87 Fuel.

With a 1966 or 1968 200 Six block that you have with a .020 to .030 over Bore. One Combo you can use is the stock 6.5 CC Dished Pistons or the Flat Top's if you can locate them and than Zero Deck the Block. Used with a FelPro Head Gasket (that has a .050 Crush Thickness), you would then need to Mill the Large Log Head down to a 52 or 54 CC Combustion Chamber (depending on the Piston Type you use) this would bring you right up to 9.2 to 1 Static Compression Ratio (C.R.) and would it would have a .050 Quench Distance.

The Stock 1963 1/2 to 1968 Ford 200 Six's mostly all had these 6.5 CC Dished Pistons except for California Emissions models (the original Ford Pistons had a Compression Height of 1.511) setting top down the bore at .019 and with the stock Small Log Heads that were usually at 52 CC's and the Steel Shim Head gaskets (about .022 Crush Thickness) they would have a Quench Distance of .041 with a C. R. of 8.7 to 8.8 to 1.

The problem is that most of the Ford 200 Six replacement Pistons will only have a Compression Height of 1.5 putting the piston even farther down the Bore at .030 and requires a lot more block Milling to bring it back into spec again. I have recently found out that the Australian Spec 200 Six Pistons (with a 6.5 CC Dish) are available easily here in the US for about the same price as the other's, this can save some cost not needing to do so much Block Deck Milling. Those Pistons have a higher Compression Height of 1.530 so this should bring you right near a Zero Deck Height with the stock Block Deck Height or else very close. It is a good ideal to measure your Pistons Top to Block Deck on number 1 and 6 at TDC so you know where your starting at. Another option would be to Mill the Block deck so that the pistons are .010 above the deck than you would get you right back at the much better Factory 200 Six Spec of a .040 Quench Distance and the head won't need to be milled as much either.

I think if your budget is tight that you can use the Distributor that is from the 1968 Block with a Pertronix (some pictures of it would help to ID it). Otherwise if you have a LOM than you will be better off with going to a 1977 to 1983 DuraSpark II set up if your car happens to have the stock Power Steering since the HEI's and DUI's won't fit with the stock Ford power steering. Best of luck and hope this is of some help to you.

 

[bmbm40]

1968 Mustang is a good one to have! And you are right a warmed up 200 with the five speed will perform well. DSII is a great ignition for not too much money. Get a copy of the Falcon Performance Handbook you will enjoy it lots of good info and these guys on here know everything really.

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, the first thing to do is have the new head cleaned and checked for cracks. The area under the carb flange between 3 and 4 needs to be carefully checked.
I would CC the combustion chamber and shoot for @ 52-53 CC when milling the head.
You need to have the valve guides measured, and possibly replaced if they are worn. The machine shop should do a three angle valve job. The stock size valves should work well.
Once you pick a cam, I would use the valve springs the cam maker recommends. You can look for one piece retainers and other improvements if you want to spend the $.
I believe the Ford ignition, with the Pertronix is good, but if you can, have a distributor expert check the timing curve.
You have a lot to plan, take it one step at a time, and you will have a nice, strong, unique engine in your Mustang.
Good luck

 

[twentyover]

Just a thought on carburetion if you want to stand out from the crowd

 

[aussie7mains]

As to a camshaft, crow in Australia has them listed for the precrossflow engines, their 63602 would be suitable for your application. https://www.crowcams.com.au/Portals/0/Crow2020/CrowCams2020.pdf?ver=2019-12-18-095023-240
And Aussiespeed has a two outlet cast iron exhaust manifold that would help too:-https://www.aussiespeedshop.com/product/ford-six-144-170-221-200-dual-outlet-cast-iron-exhaust-header-as0017-1v/
Since your in the Netherlands, you most likely know someone who emigrated to Australia and could help out. lots of dutch decendants here.
Unfortunately Australia stocked making the precrossflow sixes in 1976, we went crossflow alloy head after that, then SOHC then DOHC. so parts the early engines hard to find. Best of luck getting the 250-2v head, they are rare now and pulling up to A$2000 for a bare head. Maybe modifying the log head to take twin or triple SU carbs is possible for you, you Dutch are excellent engineers . The 5 speed you have selected is from the Escort/Cortina cars, It will be Ok as long as you dont go too hard on it, its actually a nice box, just a bit small, down here we go for either the tremec T5 or one of the toyota iron cased 5 speeds, they are getting hard to get too now. You could always import a 200ci crossflow six, but raises a lot of problems.