Efi options for a 200.

[Dragonlich1961]

I'm looking to convert my 61 ranchero (sunshine) to efi. Current set up is a 68 block, 78 head, comp 260h cam, 1.5 rockers. 9.2-9.5 comp. Wsa111 tuned duraspark 2 with an msd6al, vintage air ac, custom 2.5 exhaust with dual outlet header. Backed by a t5 and 3.73. Currently running a 32/36 Weber carb through an adapter. I'm having constant pinging issues at part throttle accel and WOT. I've been playing with the jetting on this carb and I've had to jet it up a decent amount to make it this far. Stock jets has it at 16 afr at wide open before changes. I fight with it to stay running when coming to a stop when its cold. Id like to get better mpg and durability out of it. I know it has more on the table but I can't drive it wot with out it pinging.
Current thoughts are to pull my head and mill for a holley 2 barrel pattern, Then run a holley 2300 sniper. I would like to have timing control and was hoping to avoid purchasing the complete system from holley. Everything is neatly tucked away curently and would involve major wiring surgery to free the msd from the car. ( its tucked above the passenger kick panel beside the vintage air gen4 magnum box). Eventual plans would be to build a turbo efi engine for this car later( big bell 200) aluminium head and maybe multiport efi. So im looking to others who have done this in hopes that you can shed some light on this. I will have to either run an external fuel pump or make an internal setup. No efi tank or sending unit is available for the ranchero/station wagon tank as its upside down from the falcon/ mustang.

 

[pmuller9]

I would like to have timing control and was hoping to avoid purchasing the complete system from holley. Everything is neatly tucked away curently and would involve major wiring surgery to free the msd from the car. ( its tucked above the passenger kick panel beside the vintage air gen4 magnum box).

For timing control the MSD 6AL will be triggered using it's white wire which will connect to the white wire coming from the Sniper 2300.
The violet and green wires from the MSD box will not be used.
The Duraspark distributor can be used to trigger the Sniper if the mechanical and vacuum advance is locked out.

 

[MechRick]

The pinging issues might be a fuel distribution problem. Does it sound like one cylinder is pinging, or is it random on all cylinders?

Changing to a Sniper might change the fuel distribution in the intake, chances are it won't. Log intakes tend to run leaner at the ends.

Multiport injection would be the best scenario, but I don't think it's ever been done to the cast iron log. Would be an interesting project if you could find a machinist willing to attempt it.

If I were in your shoes, I think I would scrounge up one of the Offy tri power setups available for log intakes and run 3 single barrel downdraft throttle bodies on it (GM S10 or similar). Something like this:

https://www.trifive.com/threads/dual-1-barrel-tbis-inline-six.116377/

No need to run them staged, they can open all at once. Control them with the aftermarket controller of your choice.

That should improve fuel distribution over the stock setup.

-Beautiful car by the way.

 

[Dragonlich1961]

I was hoping my pining issue was more just a fuel issue- like before. I had to increase jet size much more then I was led to believe, I am suspect of being out of carb/ airflow. I would love to make a tri 1 bbl efi setup, but I can't find a efi 1 bbl that is standalone. I would also like to build a turbo charged 200 with the aluminum cylinder head, drill the intake for injectors and run multipoint. This would be the cure all for fuel distribution problems. This system would require a standalone ecu- most likely a holley hp/ terminator if I chose to do one. With a little bit of work, I though about running coil on plug using some ls type coils. Hard part of this would the cam and crank sensors, and fabbing an oil pump drive (heard rumors of a 2.3 lima unit being modified to suit). This is the long plan. Aluminum head is still not viable yet. The turbo engine would require a different block( big bell 200), custom rods, pistons, ect.
I have seen some folks cut the log off and go crazy from there. Not the route i want to go.
Wanted to hear other people's success or failure stories, I've had decent success with the holley sniper 4 bbl unit and the 1 bbl unit. The 1 bbl unit was used on a 1940 chevy 216. If a 2300 unit was used, what else would need changed as well? Throttle link/ cable.

 

[MechRick]

The log is probably the overall restriction.

Your chosen cam profile can be causing it if lobes are ground on 110 degree centers, especially at that static compression.

The reason I like the tri power setups for the log is it's a way to make the log flow enough air to support mods and improve distribution. It places a fuel/air source directly in between each pair of cylinders.

Switching to the aluminum head/intake setup might help.

I've struggled with 2.3L fours pinging at 9:1 compression (running 32/36 Webers) and EFI fixed them.

I've struggled with a 4.9L pinging with an Offy DP intake and Comp 268H, then with EFI and the same cam. A swap to a stock cam fixed that one.

 

[xctasy]

Back in 1963, Ford fixed the hot idle compensation, with a Bi Metallic strip that adjust air fuel ratio, via air bleeding when heat increases.

Every 2-BBL or EFi conversion to a log head 200, will set you up for a fall.

Roughly 99% of the supplied info is technically wrong, and forces you to use non factory parts which will Never Work Well. If it doesn't work well, its an Epic Fail.

Any EFi conversion will force you to use 40 new special parts, and you have to negotiate a mine field of Ignition, Fuel Pump, regulator, wiring and vacuum fitting issues or matters, even before you rework the awfull 1-bbl carb hole. Any time some one talks 1-bbl TBi with stock 1-bbl mount, or a non Ford DS or later ignition, run away little rabbit. The Chevy sensors and ancillary fuel pumps are great. If you convert to HEI or some hybridized Sniper or DU1, your going back to Chevy logic, and that means saying F-U AND "Nyet" to roughly 55 years of Fords Solid State Ignition excellence. That's fine if you know more than the Ford Motor Company, but in my opinion, the ignition is the life blood of a modern engine.


From 42 years of experience with just the 1976 Ford 32/36 DGAV 2-BBL carbs on 2000 cc 1970-1974 Pinto engine, without Eight dollars of bleed back fuel filtration

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any Weber 2-bbl on a log head Ford will suffer what ThunderHead289 called an "air fuel ratio swing due to modern fuel blends"

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Unlike others here, I absolutely don't buy into the AM or LM Innovate wide band everything. Or Electric Fuyel pumpe everything. Rather than buy an Air Fuel meter, I'd always go mechanical fuel pump, and Uncle Tonys Garage's AMC or Chrysler Corp spec bleedback fuel filter. I use a narrow band Bosch O2 sensor, and tune based on the Pierces Carburetor Weber tuning guide. I wouldn't use an electric fuel pump if you paid me. The mechanical fuel pump just requires the modifications Ford Australia made in 1982. They have an integrated vapor separator, and a bleed back line.

When going EFi, my recommendation is to use the push-rod operated Small-block Chevy Professional Products’ POWERFLOW™ Piston Style Fuel Pump #2903, and avoid the relay and crash safety issues every electric fuel pump has.

You just have to make a pushrod tube to operate it. The Gen 1 SBC uses the same AMC Jeep and Ford 144-250 fuel pump mounting pattern, but instead of a rocker arm, uses a pushrod.

"http://www.competitionplus.com/drag-racing/new-products/2903-powerflow-piston-fuel-pump"

Professional Products,
12705 S. Van Ness Ave.,
Hawthorne, Ca. 90250.
323-779-2020 Fax: 323-754-1141.


For Port EFi, use the stock EECIV Ford return line fuel system, but with the TripMinder or MPG meter Vapor Seperator. Coomon to VV7200 equipped Crown Vics or Grand Marque's

"http://www.motomobil.com/shop_images/60971490.gif"

Both Ford and GM used the electronic devices with carb engines using a secondary supplier, it had three lines, in and out and a tank return line or activated carbon arrester vapor line equipped fuel flow meter, and the fuel flow meter is still around as an old part on theses junked Panther, Fox and B body gm letter cars. It was most common in the US as a E69Z-10D924-B Flow Sensor service replacement in Aerostar automatic 2.8's. The 150 to 160 hp versions of the Bosch K Jetronic 2.8 Injection on 1981 to 1985 Euro Fords is the same, but listed as 61044440-1 in http://www.motomobil.com/3237,61044440-1.html


On the Serious Explorer's forum, I am ancient user LogEFI.

The conversion to EFi on a 144-170-188-200-221/250 log head Ford, open up the 1-bbl hole to 1.875", or do the Direct Mount 2-bbl conversion, and then add a big single throttle body, and copy Xflow_Fairlane's method of EFi conversion.

from "https://fordsix.com/threads/new-project-eaton-m90-and-efi-on-my-early-bronco-200.71121/page-3"

 

[Dragonlich1961]

I think I am experiencing the afr swing you mentioned. Was hoping to avoid the major work into the cast iron head, just due to wanting to use the aluminium head later. I'm use to one problem causing another. It is my understanding that GM hei type dizzy's (the ford version for our 6 have an oil problem) are not good for fuel injection as they can cause a poor( dirty)single. I am currently using a mechanical pump. I have not had a problem with vapor locking, just constant pinging problems. I was hoping to constantly move forward towards my end goal, which is turbo efi. I wanted the adjustability that came with an aftermarket style efi, I'm not as familiar with the 80/90's, but I am open to options. I have though of using a factory ford efi v8 for the 4 door I picked up for the wife. She wants efi and that system is more available and for what she wants (nice basic driver) I think it would be perfect.

I enjoy the tinker aspect of getting something to work right and I love making something from nothing. I've only had the car on the road for one season- 2000 miles and have not been able to drive it to its extent as I've always had a carb problem. I have upgraded the brakes, suspension, trans. It's perfectly drive able with what I have done, if I can get it the run correctly. The pinging problem has also been exasprated by a recent move. I am now a higher elevation then originally tuned for(still had problems) but regularly visit my parents still.

 

[xctasy]

The Vintage In lines head won't work well with a Holley Sniper 2300 two hole TBi. Like it is with the AMC Jeep 2bbl to TBi conversions. Totally Wrong manifolding for fuel injection, totally wrong throttle blade biasing to keep the air fuel well trimmed. The only thing that allows them to work is the adaptive tuning strategy. On a V6 or V8, fine. Ford Australia spent millions on making twin injector Central Fuel Injection work on its 3.2 and 3.9 liter OHC six in lines, the used a 38 DGAS carb base with two Nissan injectors from the 2.4 liter Pathfinder pickup.

To avoid a whole lotta double doo doo's, you just need to focus on where you want to be purchase and configuration-wise.

I'd go right for a Richard Holdener and 67straightsix Holley HP and port EFi. Get a better ignition system, crank trigger, oil pump drive and sequential inject it with a nice wild cam

Good fortune with your plans.

 

[King_Kong]

_____

 

[Dragonlich1961]

The Vintage In lines head won't work well with a Holley Sniper 2300 two hole TBi. Like it is with the AMC Jeep 2bbl to TBi conversions. Totally Wrong manifolding for fuel injection, totally wrong throttle blade biasing to keep the air fuel well trimmed. The only thing that allows them to work is the adaptive tuning strategy. On a V6 or V8, fine. Ford Australia spent millions on making twin injector Central Fuel Injection work on its 3.2 and 3.9 liter OHC six in lines, the used a 38 DGAS carb base with two Nissan injectors from the 2.4 liter Pathfinder pickup.

To avoid a whole lotta double doo doo's, you just need to focus on where you want to be purchase and configuration-wise.

I'd go right for a Richard Holdener and 67straightsix Holley HP and port EFi. Get a better ignition system, crank trigger, oil pump drive and sequential inject it with a nice wild cam

Good fortune with your plans.

Never though about the flow problem. Thought that would be corrected with the new head. What about the 2 barrel 2300 unit causes the air flow problem , curiosity sakes. The jeep 4.0 has a similar shaped intake. I'm assuming it has to do with the long runner and fuel being far from the intake valve. ( similar to carb). As the jeep is multiport.
A second engine will take time and money which I do not have at the moment so those will wait. But I can continue to build it on paper so this information is still very much helpful.
Thanks.

 

[xctasy]

Front to rear fuel bias occurs on all 2300 Holley, 2CG Rochester or Carter BBD based throttle bodies. The Autolite 2100 and Motorcraft 2150 as well. The Ford CFi on 5.0 V8's and 3.8 V6s biased the roosters tail to the back of the engine under wide open throttle. Ford had a special flow biasing tin adaptor to ensure air fuel ratio was evenly biased between all 8 or 6 cylinders.

The only carbs or CFi that fixed that was the Holley 2305 and Ford Australia Motorcraft with the Center tip in throttle bodies. Holley and FiTech missed that important development factor that GM and Chrysler ( the OEM GM In line six and Mopar Trans 4 were the engines the 2bbl Holley 2305 carb) and Ford Australia and Nissan ( the 2bbl 38 Weber based 2 injector CFi for in line sixes or L series 2,4's)...each put in the effort to correct. Holley and FiTech...both forgot the lesson.

 

[xctasy]

The Italians, namely Weber, the Maserati / Count Orski V8's, and Enzo Ferraris of the V12's and also the mid 50s Aston Martins LeMan's V12, they solved flow biasing, by making sure the air fuel mix was biased to the Center of the carb.


See Ferrari Columbo 212 Triple 4bbl carbs, and various Center tip in, Center Locus 2bbl and 4bbl carbs, or the Lampredi 1953 375 M
340 hp, 4,522 cc SOHC V-12 engine, three Weber 40 mm 1F/4C carburettors

"https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Ferrari212_motor.JPG"

"https://fordsix.com/threads/differences-between-2305-2300-series-350-and-500-cfm-carbs.70791/"


"https://fordsix.com/threads/4-barrel-orientation.77277/".

There are only a very small amount of "Center Locus" tip in throttle 2 bbls, and. very rare fire prone Center tip in simultaneous 4bbl, the 1955 to 1959 Weber.

From 1972 to date, one particular kind of dual synch carb....the Weber DG series 38 with 25 or 27 mm venturis exists, as well as the 2 bbl Weber DCNF carbs as used on 66- 89 Maserati V8's and some Biturbo V6's and 72-89 Aston Martin V8's. The 1988 to 1991 Australian EA Falcon 3.2 and 3.9 liter Central Fuel Injection TBi used a similar kind, but it was Chrysler/GM/Nissan sphere injected, didn't use Type 2 Bosch injectors.

With the right kind of Center tip in throttles, the Vintage in lines intake will work perfect.

If the intake manifold is really good, like the old M code 170 HP 2V 250 Ford, or any of the Aussie in line Six cylinder D series Hemi 245/265's with 2bbl or 4bbls, or the Argentine 3.1 188 ME or 3.6 liter SP 221... they worked okay with some biased 2bbl carbs. But they had a lot of development work done on them.

The Vintage In lines intake is a much bigger 4bbl base design, suited for Center biased carbs and Center biased Throttle body EFi. Ford USA skipped throttle body EFi on its six in line cars. Ford Australia, it redesigned a totally new TBi system with Nissan.

 

[xctasy]

Four dumb steps for Holley and FiTech were:.

1. Anyone who puts an ECU on a fuel supply device ( carb, EFi, air cleaner) .... Mopar sure proved from 78 to 89 that just wasn't a prudent long term solution.

2.Crank position sensor. Ford and GM used early Crank Position sensors on the Bendix Oldsmobile/ Caddilac 350 port EFi and 79-84 Ford 5.0Liter EEC III Central Fuel Injection. Holley and FiTech don't, and as such, they don't jell with Non GM style ignition systems. It's simply a bad step isto have no dedicated digital crank sensor, which would then allow Ignition type to be totally free choice to customer, with a huge cost reduction.

3.Thirdly, any time you go Throttle body EFi, you Really have to go to a four corner idle fuel injector control to make sure curb idle isn't going to have to be crutched up from hanging by subsidiary use of the MAP sensor and Idle Air Control. All the modern Holley and FiTech ECUs rely on cycling the MAP and TPS and ignition control, with IAC and ignition tip in to control drivability, whereas just a simple four corner idle with a good adaptor would solve 90 % of the problems.

4. Fourth, any EFi system needs 40 key parts to run it, but any stock 1962 to 1989 carb engine only needs about, oh, 13 systems to run. So already, the ECM is held shot gun by another 27 extra low quality, below OEM quality dirt bags that will chop out at random.

The hand controller then becomes a crutch to prop up a raft of messed up systems. Return lines, low fuel supply, crash fuel cut off, hot fuel handling with oxygenated fuel blends...your hand controller won't tell you what's not working in those areas because everything is a custom owner hot rod system. So get used to a raft of durability and dead on side of road faults.

Chrysler Corp were practically bankrupted by systems like this, and IMHO, it's only Holley and FiTech's pretty good follow up services and the goodwill of the people that buy into the Throttle Body Insanity that will make these systems a success.

I really like this guy's video on both systems. I would like everyone to be as well informed as this person.

Enlightened Fuel Info is the anti dote to Electronic Fuel Ignorance

See Zap's 85GT post in this

"http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?178912-Fitech-EFI-system"

And see the eventual love the owner has for the system in this post
"http://VB.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?193103-Don-t-buy-FiTech"

 

[78_200_C4]

"16 afr at wide open" is way to lean. Adjust it to 13.
Don't ruin your head by milling and brazing it.
Enlarge the intake bore hole and enlarge the weber adapter to match the enlarged bore.
If you do buy a Sniper get the small base Rochester version.
The throttle bores are closer together on small base carbs compared to Autolite and Holley carbs.
The throttle lever on the BBD jeep version carbs and i would guess the Sniper are leaned too far forward.
You may have to weld on a new throttle lever after cutting off the original one.
A properly adjusted choke will help cold drivability problems.
One reason I run a 205 thermostat is to keep the intake log hot. I don't want fuel falling out of suspension at the end log ports.

 

[78_200_C4]

My 96 4.9 EFI pinged like crazy when the EGR wasn't working correctly. No matter what I did with the timing.

That being said, I'm curious if your 78 head combustion design (plus the cam possibly) need a working EGR setup to avoid the pinging.

When I worked as a mechanic I found the same ping problems with carb equipped cars when the EGR was plugged.
I run a 78 head milled .060 with a 78 cam without ping problems. I would guess the ping is due to an air fuel mixture ratio being too lean. EGR would lower burn temp reducing NOX and ping.

 

[R1BIT]

Ok so I have a 200 and my YF 7130 is leaking at the throttle shaft. Are there any replacements available or should I just get a reworked replacement YF?

 

[Dragonlich1961]

I'd like to revist this topic. Has anyone tried tuning efi ITBs? Shortly I'll be in possession of an Aussie head with triple webers. I would like to discuss the feasibility of using borla efi throttle bodies (2910 series) as well as prefences in ecu's and ignition options.
My understanding is that the throttle bodies should be a direct replacement for the weber in terms of bolt pattern and linkage( within reason).
Fuel rails can be bought from borla so nothing custom there. I will have to size injectors accordingly. For ecu I am currently planning on a holley terminator system( I've used their system once on a friend's car and had great success, 66 chev with a ls3)
I will have to source my own sensors, most likely gm since they are readily available for data and replacement.
IAT, MAP, CTS, O2. Any that I am missing?
Biggest concern is in ignition and crank/cam sensor. No bolt on system is avaliable. Can a Ds2 distributor be used as a valid cam sensor or will I need to get a better soultion?

 

[pmuller9]

I will have to source my own sensors, most likely gm since they are readily available for data and replacement.
IAT, MAP, CTS, O2. Any that I am missing?

TPS and IAC.
You may also want to log oil and fuel pressure.

Biggest concern is in ignition and crank/cam sensor. No bolt on system is avaliable. Can a Ds2 distributor be used as a valid cam sensor or will I need to get a better soultion?

The DS2 can be used as a cam sync sensor by removing 5 of the 6 reluctors.

What are you going to use as the trigger wheel?

 

[pmuller9]

For ecu I am currently planning on a holley terminator system( I've used their system once on a friend's car and had great success, 66 chev with a ls3)

Terminator X?

will have to source my own sensors, most likely gm since they are readily available for data and replacement.
IAT, MAP, CTS, O2. Any that I am missing?

TPS and IAC.
You may also want to log oil and fuel pressure.

Biggest concern is in ignition and crank/cam sensor. No bolt on system is avaliable. Can a Ds2 distributor be used as a valid cam sensor or will I need to get a better soultion?

The DS2 can be used as a cam sync sensor by removing 5 of the 6 reluctors.

What are you going to use as the trigger wheel?

 

[Dragonlich1961]

Terminator X?

TPS and IAC.
You may also want to log oil and fuel pressure.

The DS2 can be used as a cam sync sensor by removing 5 of the 6 reluctors.

What are you going to use as the trigger wheel?

Yes terminator x, his was actually an x max kit due to dbw and Trans control.
I'm not sure if I can use an IAC with the itb setup, won't know until I have parts in my hands. I will need a tps, borla has a kit for their throttle bodies.
I have a second ds2 that I can modify for use as a cam sensor. Just grind off the 5 lobes and leave one, assuming near the sensor when cyl 1 is at tdc?
I have not had a chance to look at crank trigger kits. I don't have a lot of room on the crank pulley due to running a dual groove pulley (planning for ps) and mechanical fan.