All Small Six Timing issue

[Angry b1rd]

My cam card calls for the centerline timing event on the intake side at 105 degrees. The closest I can get is 111 degrees with a stock timing set. I cannot find an
1) available adjustable timing set
( have called several suppliers that showed "in stock" on their websites)
2) 3 or even 4 degree offset woodruff key
3) 6 degree offset camshaft dowel pin

Does anyone have any of the above or know where I might be able to find parts.
This is for a 1978 200. TIA

 

[pmuller9]

Which cam is it?

Would you describe the steps you took when zeroing the degree wheel and obtaining the readings from the degree wheel for the opening and closing cam events including those readings you took from the degree wheel.
Thanks

 

[bubba22349]

There are several places to get the JP Performance Adjustable Double Roller Timing Chain Sets in the US and then there is also Crow Cams Version from Australia so were have you tried?

 

[Angry b1rd]

I hadn't considered the JP as it is listed for the " Canadian block". Not sure if there is any difference there, but if it will work I would give it a go. I will check the numbers from the degree process and post in the am

 

[bubba22349]

For Question #1
1. These first 3 are the listings for JP Performance # JJP-200-DRC adjustable Double Roller Timing Chain Set, these will fit the US 170's & 200's Six's should also fit the 144 though I never tried doing that yet. There is also another set the JJP-5608-DRC that is said to be for the Canadian Block but to the best of my knowledge the Austrian and Canadian Ford Small Six's 144, 170, & 200 Log Head Engines have exactly the same Dimensions as were used on the US 144, 170, & 200 Six engine's. So my question is why would the Canadian Ford 170 & 200 Small Six's be any different?

Clifford Performance Ford 200 Double Roller Timing chain set JPP-200-DRC
https://cliffordperformance.net/store/ols/products/ford-170200-double-roller-timing-set

Vintage Inlines JPP-200-DRC
https://www.vintageinlines.com/product-page/dual-roller-timing-chain-set-170-200ci

Clay Smith Cams JPP-200-DRC
https://claysmithcams.com/product-id-jpp-200-drc-dual-roller-timing-chain-set-170-200ci/

Crow Cams Double Roller Timing Chain Set CS6250 fits Ford 170 & 200- plus the Australian 250 Six

https://www.crowcams.com.au/FindaProduct/tabid/92/ProdID/16219/Default.aspx​

For Question #2 there are a couple of offset Keys made
2. the Mr. Gasket Crankshaft Keys 987G that have a 2 Degree OffSet or the Mr. Gasket Crankshaft Keys 988G a 4 Degree OffSet Good luck in the hunt

 

[Angry b1rd]

Bubba22349
Clay smith is backordered as of yesterday when I called. Can't really get a response from vintage inlines. I'll check with Clifford in the morning. The Mr gasket keys do not look like the correct shape compared to my current woodruff key. Thank you for providing me with those options.

 

[Angry b1rd]

Pmuller9
The cam is a clay smith H-274-O-B
I carefully found TDC on the number one piston using a dial indicator and adjusted the pointer and degree wheel to 0. I then carefully aligned a pushrod and the dial indicator in the intake lifter for the #1 cylinder and rotated clockwise to max lift. Zeroed the indicator and rotated .050 clockwise. The wheel read 158. I then rotated clockwise to max lift again. Rotated the crank counter clockwise .050 from the rear of the engine using a prybar and 2 flex plate bolts as to not loosen the crank bolt that was holding on the degree wheel. That gave me a figure of 64 degrees. 158+64=222/2=111.

 

[bubba22349]

Bubba22349
Clay smith is backordered as of yesterday when I called. Can't really get a response from vintage inlines. I'll check with Clifford in the morning. The Mr gasket keys do not look like the correct shape compared to my current woodruff key. Thank you for providing me with those options.

Hi Angry b1rd, I also have a site that lists a limited stock of those JJP-5608-DRC Timing sets they claim they are exactly the same as the JPP-200-DRC set listed at this link, (there may be some others too).
https://www.2040-parts.com/200-ford...-timing-chain-set-jp5608-66-mustang-i1397912/

As for the Mr. Gasket offset keys you would not really want it to look like your current crankshaft WoodRuff Key. You only need to use them for just the location of the single Crankshaft Cam Timing Gear and you then install that key along with the Timing Chain set. Then you will reuse your original Crankshaft Key and just shorten it up to fit so it will keep the Crankshaft Dampener's TDC Timing Mark in the stock factory location. Good luck

 

[pmuller9]

Pmuller9
The cam is a clay smith H-274-O-B
I carefully found TDC on the number one piston using a dial indicator and adjusted the pointer and degree wheel to 0. I then carefully aligned a pushrod and the dial indicator in the intake lifter for the #1 cylinder and rotated clockwise to max lift. Zeroed the indicator and rotated .050 clockwise. The wheel read 158. I then rotated clockwise to max lift again. Rotated the crank counter clockwise .050 from the rear of the engine using a prybar and 2 flex plate bolts as to not loosen the crank bolt that was holding on the degree wheel. That gave me a figure of 64 degrees. 158+64=222/2=111.

You may be the victim of accumulated error.

Zeroing the degree wheel:
You bring the piston up to TDC and zero the dial indicator and at the same time adjust the pointer to "0" on the wheel.
Then turn the crank CCW until the dial goes past .050"
Now turn the crank CW until the dial reads .050"
The reason for pushing the piston up to .050" is to eliminate the rod bearing clearance error.
Continue turning the crank CW and go past TDC and past .050" on the other side, then turn the crank CCW to push the piston up to .050" on the dial.
If the wheel is truly at zero, both the reading before and after TDC should be the same and close to 12.5 degrees before and after TDC.

Camshaft Timing:
The camshaft should be timed using the .050" duration method.
That is the reason for the opening and closing points shown on the cam card.
This time zero the dial when the lifter is all the way down on the heel of the cam.
Then turn the crankshaft CW until the dial reads .050" and record the wheel reading.
Continue turning the crank CW.
The dial will go past max lift and down.
When the dial reads .050" from the bottom, record the wheel reading.
It is IMPORTANT that the crank is alway being turned clockwise when taking degree wheel readings, so the timing chain slack doesn't introduce an error.
If you accidentally go past the .050" on your dial, back the crank up CCW and come back into the .050" reading CW.

If you look at the cam card, the first intake .050" reading as the lifter rises is at 7 degrees BTDC and is .050" from the bottom after max lift at 37 degrees ABDC.
Check the exhaust reading also just to see if the lobe separation angle is correct on the cam.
The exhaust opens 47 degrees BBDC and closes 3 degrees BTDC

 

[aussie7mains]

Thats a lot of cam for a log headed engine! JP is in Adelaide, you can find them easily. Search under Nornda.

 

[Angry b1rd]

You guys are awesome. I actually called Clifford performance and got the double adjustable roller timing set ordered. I will degree again before installing the new parts using pmuller9's method. I also believe it is quite a lot of cam, but should pair pretty well with the modifications performed to the head, as well as everything else done to the car t5, 8.8, ported and 2v conversion, yadda, yadda. Looking forward to learning as I go with the help of you guys. Thanks again

 

[drag-200stang]

Please come back and let us know when you get it.
Remember do not use the oil slinger on the crank if you have one. It is not needed. It will hit the roller chain.
You are familiar with the cam shaft spacer that goes with the inside bevel toward the cam journal behind the cam pin ? that gets missed a lot and the oil galley plug hidden behind the cam sprocket.

 

[Angry b1rd]

Please come back and let us know when you get it.
Remember do not use the oil slinger on the crank if you have one. It is not needed. It will hit the roller chain.
You are familiar with the cam shaft spacer that goes with the inside bevel toward the cam journal behind the cam pin ? that gets missed a lot and the oil galley plug hidden behind the

I do have the cam spacer. So is it correct that it would fit between the thrust plate and the cam pin? Seems that would place the timing gear pretty far outward towards the timing cover.

 

[drag-200stang]

How about this. With the cam pin removed from the cam, place the spacer the on the cam snout with the inside bevel facing the cam journal. now install pin with the spacer between the pin and cam journal. I do this before putting the cam in the block, then install cam using a long 7/16 course bolt as a handle, then cam thrust /retainer plate and bolt down, and then install the timing chain sprocket set. Make sure that you line up the crank sprocket timing mark and the cam timing mark before final chain and sprocket install. Sometimes the cam will get pushed back to far and fight you, just keep it pried forward.

 

[wsa111]

I don't know all the specs on your build, but with the 274 cam you will have no low end.
I hope your compression ratio is at least 10-1.
I have run that cam & replaced it after one month of use.
Go Schneider or Howard cams.

 

[Angry b1rd]

I believe it was George at Clay smith who recommended this cam profile, but I am slightly worried about sacrificing low end as well. This 200 is from a 1978 fairmont. I have 0 decked the block and taken .014 from the head. I do have a NOS steel head gasket if needed. I do not believe I will be at 10:1 compression nor do I really want to be. I also have a shortened (one side) 8.8 that came with 4:10 gears and the T5Z from modern driveline. I have ported the head per "the handbook" and will be completing the 2v conversion soon. Originally I had selected a cam from Howard, but was told they dont do orders over the phone nor could i find a dealer that had what I needed. I believe the cam they recommended was the same 274 with 108 lc. I guess ill just roll with it until i find out for myself how it runs and go from there. Still waiting on the timing set to get here as nasty weather may have delayed shipping

 

[bubba22349]

I believe it was George at Clay smith who recommended this cam profile, but I am slightly worried about sacrificing low end as well. This 200 is from a 1978 fairmont. I have 0 decked the block and taken .014 from the head. I do have a NOS steel head gasket if needed. I do not believe I will be at 10:1 compression nor do I really want to be. I also have a shortened (one side) 8.8 that came with 4:10 gears and the T5Z from modern driveline. I have ported the head per "the handbook" and will be completing the 2v conversion soon. Originally I had selected a cam from Howard, but was told they dont do orders over the phone nor could i find a dealer that had what I needed. I believe the cam they recommended was the same 274 with 108 lc. I guess ill just roll with it until i find out for myself how it runs and go from there. Still waiting on the timing set to get here as nasty weather may have delayed shipping

It's very good that you at least zero decked the block on your 78 200. But even so you are still going to be at a quite low Static Compression Ratio and that cam isn't going to change this much in the right direction. I ran the numbers with what I think is your combo without knowing all the correct details. You milled the head only .014 note that these stock 1978 Large Log Heads generally will have a 62 CC Combustion Chamber with the .014 cut you might be now at around 59.7 CC with a Zero deck Block (is it still the stock bore?) plus the Composition Head Gaskets like a FelPro at .050 you would have a Compression Ratio of 8.25 to 1 this is pretty low for even a mild N. A. Performance engine build. With the stock Steel Shim Head Gasket it's only going to be a little better at 8.79 to 1 this is almost what the stock 1963 1/2 to 1968 200 Six's engines had with the piston's at .019 down the hole. For a Zero Decked block you could be befitting more with a 9.1 to 9.2 to 1 and still be able to use 87 grade fuel at sea level. With your Cam your Dynamic Compression Ratio would be from about 7.75 to 1 (at the 8.25 to 1 C.R.) to 8.63 to 1 (at the 8.79 to 1 C.R.) depending on the Head Gasket used. Best of luck on your build.

 

[Angry b1rd]

The pistons are .030 over and are dished. The head will be apart so it's not too late to shave some more if I need too. Using stock 1.5 ratio adjustable rocker arms. I would like to be in the 9.2-9.5:1 range if possible. Would also consider adding a bit of boost, however my pistons are standard cast aluminum. And internals are about as stock as it gets. Can you please advise?

 

[pmuller9]

Would also consider adding a bit of boost, however my pistons are standard cast aluminum. And internals are about as stock as it gets. Can you please advise?

Are you talking about boost from a turbocharger?

Did you get the camshaft set at the correct intake lobe center position?

 

[Angry b1rd]

Are you talking about boost from a turbocharger?

Did you get the camshaft set at the correct intake lobe center position?

Yes. I Would like to turbo this motor as well. I am still waiting for the double roller timing set to arrive to degree the camshaft again. The more I research and talk to people it's sounding like this is not the right camshaft for my application