250 build

Econoline

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It's been a while since there was an update on my build. I finally got my cam from Schneider. Got a new crank key, I dismembered mine for the pos Erson cam. Installed it on the marks and it degree'd right in on the numbers. There was ~.003" run out but some of that may be in my setup. Grinder off thing like the Erson but better controlled and indexed right to the marks when installed.

Having done that I installed my head, a nos shaft, perches and shaft springs with the good rockers off the 78 cracked head. Sunday I got the water and fuel pumps, the thermostat and senders installed, painted the top end and air cleaner. I realized my oil pump shaft was worn and have a new one of those coming and some odds and ends. I hop to get it married to the aod and installed in the van weekend after this coming.

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I put this sticker on the end of the snorkel, FoMoCo! Makes up for the other sticker ;)

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Posting a reply because I am doing almost the same build (although with a 200) and because I'm just down the road from you in Seattle!

I grabbed a used 65 that was in good shape and had it bored .030 over. Stock Pistons and new components, less the cam. Plan on beginning assembly in the next week or so. I have a 78 head I've already modded with a direct mount 2 barrel webber 32/36 to go along with my 2 1/2" headers and DUI. Stock C4 auto and 7.25" rear end.

I labored over my cam choice for a LONG time. I rear a TON of info on cams and every post I could on here, but still can't get a decent feel for how it will actually run. I eventually called Schneider (don't remember who I talked to) but he recommended the same 256-2H cam. He asked a lot of questions about my goals before making a recommendation, so in hoping it's a good choice for me. They seemed like good service at a reasonable price.

What do others think about those specs? I told him my goals were a nice smooth idle but a little more get up and go than the stock cam. I drive it to from work, so it's pretty much a commuter car and I prefer comfort over performance (getting old!).
http://schneidercams.com/256HfordI6hydraulic.aspx

And I don't know if anyone else building an engine has found these, but I watched this series of videos on YouTube from Roy Permenter building his inline 6 and found them quite helpful.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gg_VFXm827w
 
That's awesome, what's it going into? Cam choice is tough b/c it's one of the most important factors in how the engine will suit your needs and expectations. If we assume the intake centerline is 110, need cam card or info from schneider to be sure, we can calculate what the dynamic compression ratio will be and how much you may need to mill the head or at least where you will be w/ a particular gasket. FYI, don't know when you ordered your cam but it took 6 weeks to get mine.

Need the specs on your build: head chamber volume, deck height, and piston dish size? What transmission, rear end ratio and tire size are you running?
 
I ordered the same 256-2H cam, so the cam card should be the same as yours. They said it would take about 2 weeks plus shipping.
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It'll go into a 1966 mustang.
C4 auto. No idea what the torque converter is, but assume it is stock.
Stock (but newly rebuilt) 7.25" rear end with a 2.79 ratio.
195/75R14 tires in front and back.
Classic Inlines Headers with a 2.25" single exhaust.
DUI electronic ignition.
The block will be stock (not decked). Opted for stock dished Pistons .030" over.
Plan to use the 1978 head that I had milled down .075". I believe the chamber size went from 62cc to 52cc.
Felpro gasket which should be about .050" thick compressed (.025" thicker than the stock steel gasket).
Also had a three angle valve job and did some porting and polishing, but kept the stock valves.
Direct mount Weber 32/36 carb.
Adjustable rocker arms.

I was looking at the compression ratio calculator and other info posted on the C.I. Website
http://classicinlines.com/200Z.asp#D30
http://classicinlines.com/CompressionR.asp

For a cam with intake valves that close at 58 degrees I would see a static compression ratio of around 9.0 and a dynamic compression ratio of 7.6, which would let me use regular pump gas, but might have to bump up to supreme gas. I went with the 112 degree lobe separation to give me a good idle.

On paper it sounds like a good combination, but have no idea what the actual experience will be like. I'm hoping for a big improvement over the old tired engine that's in thee now.
 
timdog":17oqy5mu said:
They said it would take about 2 weeks plus shipping.

They told me the same for my 256H-114LSA turbo cam, actually took 4 weeks to ship, but it was the beginning of racing season.
 
That table assumes zero deck height. Also the 256H cam you linked to is not the same as the one I got. It is a 256/256 112 LSA, mine is a dual pattern 256/262. I think we can assume, b/c they seem to grind them all with 2 degrees of advance, that the intake centerline is 110. Based upon that and an assumed deck height of .020", 6.5 cc dishes, .050" gasket and 52cc chambers you're compression will be lower than you may want. I'm coming up with 8.75:1 static and 7.4:1 dynamic compression. Also I would dbl check the gasket, my felpro gasket measured .046" uncompressed.

If the gasket is figured at .044" and the deck height is .010" your numbers get better @ almost 9.1:1/7.7:1

You need to measure to be sure of your chambers and deck height. Whether you're getting the 256H or the 256H2 the numbers will be the same if the intake centerline is 110

I'm using Pat Kelly's compression calculator. Read the instructions if you download and use it. You have to start at the middle tab, then the first, then the third.

Link to the calculator is near the bottom of this page:

http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html
 
Well, crud. Deck height was the one thing I didn't measure before disassembly. But, I guess that's meaningless since I have new pistons. Doesn't sound wise to measure the deck height with the old Pistons and assume the new ones would be exactly the same. I guess I will mock it up and see what I'm actually at. I don't really want to take the block back and spend MORE money on machining. Cost wasn't a huge factor going into this, but it's adding up. Already spent an extra $180 on the aftermarket cam hoping for a little better performance even though my kit came with a new stock replacement cam... and the idea of spending extra money on flat top Tempo HSC Pistons to replace the dished Pistons that came with my kit eats at me (especially since the shop already put them on the rods). That looks like a much more efficient way to raise compression.

I want something I'll be happy with and not regret, but do you think I will really notice a difference between a DCR of 7.4 and 7.7?

What would you do? Continue with what I've got started or stop and re-examine? Is it really worth going back to the shop to have them deck the block? Are either of these still too low and I should be going even higher? Go all in with the flat top Pistons? Just chuck all it and use the stock cam I've got?

I certainly won't be racing this thing, I'm going mostly for comfort... But a little extra performance if I can get it. I can't stand a rough idle and bunch of engine noise at a traffic light and spend more time on the highway to-from work at 65mph. I've accepted that a v8 or modern 6 cylinder will probably beat me every time. No shame there.


PS - I did order the same dual pattern 256-2H cam you ordered, that link was the closest I could find. Mine should come with the same specs as yours.
 
HOwdy Gentlemen:

I've been enjoying both of your builds. I will add some FYI for you Tim; new oversized pistons typically come with .005" more deck height than stock. Piston manufactures do that because they assume that some machining of the head and/or block will be done in the course of a rebuild. What make of pistons were in your kit? If the stock deck height was at .025" on the original engine, your new piston deck height will be .030". All factory 200s we're been able to measure were at .025" deck height. What brand of head gasket came in your gasket kit? FYI .005" one way or the other will not be noticeable once you're driving this engine. IIWIYS, I'd be looking to upgrade the rear end gear ratio to a 3.00:1. Other then that you're going to be miles of smiles with this engine in your Mustang.

Keep it coming.

Adios, David
 
Thanks David. It's been a long road.

If you do have .035" of deck height and .044" gasket you're compression will be just shy of 8.6/7.3, still above 7 so you will be fine, just not where you may have wanted it. I wouldn't worry about it much until you get your measurements. The head would be the easy place to get more, but if it's done, you probably don't want to go there and I wouldn't blame you.

One easy way you could help is to look for a C9OZ-6079-A NOS "valve grind kit" like in the link below. That one is a little pricey imo, they come up much cheaper. You might call Green Sales Company and see what they want for one. The ford gasket in that kit has a compressed thickness of .035". If you could find a NOS C9DZ6051C steel shim head gasket, they're basically unobtainum, but if you found one you'd be right around 8.95:1/7.55:1. Like David said we're talking about small gains. When you've got an engine that only produces say 100 HP every horse matters, but not if it's going to cost you a lot of time and money.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1969-75...ash=item5675807567:g:I50AAOSwpDdVZ6UA&vxp=mtr
 
Btw Tim, If you find yourself up in Anacortes give me a shout :beer:

edit, another thing you could do to help bring up a bit more would be to advance the cam a couple more degrees. That will bring up the compression another 10th or more.
 
Time for an update. I wanted to wait until I felt I'd got this engine dialed in right to bother with updating this build thread. This engine has been a strong runner but as you may know I fought a pinging issue from the beginning: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=76005&p=585212#p585212

Well I finally solved it for good. I tried retarding the timing, using manifold vacuum. I limited the vacuum advance with a screw and probably more. All of those in different combinations. All worked ok but none were ideal. What I found was that I simply had too much mechanical advance for my combo. Iirc, the smaller mech advance slot was a 15L. So with 12 deg initial and 30 mechanical I was @ 42 degrees and with any additional vac advance, no matter how low it would be higher. That was all fine and dandy until I was under any kind of load. Add to that the AOD not shifting right and the whole thing was quite a pita to tune the ping out.

You may remember the AOD was shifting right through 1 and 2 and into 3rd too early, it was also shifting into OD to soon. It didn't matter how much I tightened up the TV cable, it just did the same thing but shifted harder. Well after about 2000 mile it started to loosen up and shift great. It shifts just right now, uses all gears and get's into OD at 55 and won't get into OD at 35-40. It could down shift a little sooner when coming to a turn or stop but it's pretty good. The only problem with the trans now is the torque convert stalls to low for the little six. More on that later.

Back to the timing issue. I finally got around to pulling the distributor out and removing the weights. Then I welded up the 15L slot a little bit on the far side and then filed it to the size of a 13L slot. I didn't change Bills timing curve otherwise or mess with the springs or tabs. This gave me 26 deg mech. I set the initial to 11 degrees to start for 37 deg total possible. Unfortunately I don't have a dial back timing light to get all the actual specs, what it is and when it is all in for sure. I hooked the vacuum advance back to ported vacuum and adjusted the canister all the way in(max advance rate). This was a couple of months ago. I've been driving it ever since in all conditions, loads ect and it's running better than ever. No hint of ping or detonation in any gear even OD after having to slow down in traffic then climb a hill back up to 60+ with full throttle. It will hold OD down to 30 or so depending on how you are driving or the situation, even less sometimes so it's a pretty good test on a steep hill. Plenty of torque to break the drive wheel loose if you pound it in first :)

Next is try and up the initial to at least 12 and see how that goes, then try and lower the octane to mid grade and see if it's all good and go from there.

Other things that have happened is I swapped the RBS to a Chinese YFA: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77352&p=595341#p595341 It's still on there and running pretty well, good cold starts, economy is ok, could be better. I'm getting 14 mpg around town. I know it's a little rich but if I adjust the metering rod any leaner it has what I will call a "low speed cruising stumble" iow you can feel it missing fuel in short bits as you cruise at 25-30. All in all I'm very happy with this carb though.

That last thing I need to address is the torque converter. I don't know what engine this trans came from other than a V8 Econoline. I got it from an old guy in town who was going to install it in his 50's F100 but changed his mind and he wasn't sure which V8. I suspect it is the "mid-stall" converter b/c it has F-44 written on it. That is the code Oregon Performance Transmission(OPT) uses for that converter. At the time I was putting all this together Xtasy told me there was a V6 version that was higher stall and mentioned the # F-47. Unfortunately at the time I couldn't find one anywhere. All of the auto parts houses only list the low stall and the mid stall(sometimes they call it high stall but it isn't), and on the mfr sites they only list those 2 in all the catalogs I searched and a search of f-47 didn't help either. Well X was right, of course. After I got this van on the road I kept searching b/c I could tell when stopped in gear there is to much load on the engine. And I found OPT and that they had all 3 converters listed and their code for the V6 high stall is F-47. Well for less than $5 more they sell a "heavy duty" version of all 3 with brazed turbine and better bearings. Needless to say, I bought the HD version. Supposedly it is slightly higher stall, hopefully that doesn't cause any issues for me. It's rated at 2000-2400 and the other is 2000-2200 i think. I've got it in hand but haven't gotten around to installing it yet. I'll update the thread after it goes in service. Fyi, the issue is when stopped in gear the engine idle suffers. I can set the idle very low and it won't die or buck in gear, but it's not right and I want it right. Often I'll shift into N at a light to keep it smooth.

Here's the TC I got to install: https://www.oregonperformancetransmission.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ORE-76-2T-10

Other things are I switched to synthetic oil on the last change @ around 3500 miles. It's @ 4600 now.
 
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