All Small Six MPFI 200 Build

[StarDiero75]

Howdy Guys,

It's been a minute since I've been on but I'm in the planning and research stages for putting together the ultimate 200. I'm in the process of getting a modified aussie 2V intake thats been set up for MPFI. Already has injectors, fuel rail, and throttle body. I got my aussie head waiting to go to the machine shop as well as my low mount 200. I mentioned this before but I still plan to supercharge this too. So here's my ideal build, I need to know where to start for the MPFI/ignition system.

LM 200
1JZ forged H beam rods, custom forged pistons, ARP everything. Main girdle?
Aussie head, 1.75" intake, 1.5" exhaust, 1.65 yella terras, highly ported
Factory aussie 2v intake modified for MPFI
Coil on plug distributorless ignition, something like EDIS with LS coils
Paxton centrifugal supercharger (would like to end at around 14lbs or higher)
Not sure on cam for this yet

Focusing on the MPFI and ignition system, where should I start? I don't have a lot of experience with programming but I guess I'm gonna learn. Is the 300 EDIS system the one to use on the 200? How much more difficult is it to put on the coil on plug system? Does it require a different system? How do I make them all communicate with each other? There's a lot here.

I'd appreciate tips on how to approach this. I'm not sure if this helps, but I currently have the hyperspark system on the car, if reusing any of this is not possible then thats whatever.

Thanks!

 

[aussie7mains]

Just a suggestion, heres a 200ci crossflow six, I wouldnt go with a 2v Australian head, the later crossflow head is much better, but the easiest way is to go to the whole 200ci engine. As to a centrifugal blower, I run a twin screw blower, this give great torque start off idle with just a press of the foot. I can get up to 18psi boost with thi setup. I also run factory cast pistons, rods etc. No crank girdle is needed on a six, they are plenty tough, although our AU six and barra do have one from the factory. As to cam, keep it down to around 210-215 @0.050 unless you want to run at the strip only. Sell your 2v head, you will get enough to get a crossflow.

 

[Cox Custom Mechanical]

Aussie7mains is right.

As for ultimate 200, its a twin cam, hands down.

 

[pmuller9]

Is this for street and strip?

Which transmission?

What rpm do you want to run the engine to?
The rpm range will determine the camshaft profile and valve springs.

Which Paxton supercharger are you going to use?
The old SN friction ball drive units will fail if driven over 8 lbs of boost.

The Holley Hyperspark distributor only supplies a crank trigger signal.
You would need a cam sync signal along with a crank trigger signal to run sequential fuel injection and a coil near or coil on ignition system.
The best way to run a sequential system is to have a 60-2 tooth trigger wheel on the crankshaft and use a modified distributor to supply the cam sync signal.

 

[StarDiero75]

Just a suggestion, heres a 200ci crossflow six, I wouldnt go with a 2v Australian head, the later crossflow head is much better, but the easiest way is to go to the whole 200ci engine. As to a centrifugal blower, I run a twin screw blower, this give great torque start off idle with just a press of the foot. I can get up to 18psi boost with thi setup. I also run factory cast pistons, rods etc. No crank girdle is needed on a six, they are plenty tough, although our AU six and barra do have one from the factory. As to cam, keep it down to around 210-215 @0.050 unless you want to run at the strip only. Sell your 2v head, you will get enough to get a crossflow. View attachment 18259

Well I have no qualms running the supercharger you have. I didn't realize they fit under the hood. as for the crossflow, that is my ideal build, but I already spent some time and change getting it here and for me to go crossflow now instead would be a whole other hassle. unless I found a guy local, its not going to be a rout for me.

 

[StarDiero75]

Is this for street and strip?

Which transmission?

What rpm do you want to run the engine to?
The rpm range will determine the camshaft profile and valve springs.

Which Paxton supercharger are you going to use?
The old SN friction ball drive units will fail if driven over 8 lbs of boost.

The Holley Hyperspark distributor only supplies a crank trigger signal.
You would need a cam sync signal along with a crank trigger signal to run sequential fuel injection and a coil near or coil on ignition system.
The best way to run a sequential system is to have a 60-2 tooth trigger wheel on the crankshaft and use a modified distributor to supply the cam sync signal.

So this would be a street car that I will occasionally drag. Kinda a pro-street build.

Tranny is a T5 currently that will blow up. Next will be a 4spd toploader until I can afford to put in something like a TKO. I also currently have a built posi 8" with 3.25 gears.

I plan to run to about 6500-7000.

Well it sounds like that supercharger is no longer on the table. Someone above recommended a twin screw, but will that mount remote? I'd have to run it on the driver side. I like the idea of the twin screw personally since they are more torque throughout the range, as opposed to higher RPM.

Ok, thats whatever then, just trying to reuse old parts lol. I was looking into the trigger wheel setups. I think someone here makes them (based on what I read last night). I also saw someone using a 2.3 cam sensor with a 200 gear pressed on, that way the oil pump is still being driven.

 

[aussie7mains]

So this would be a street car that I will occasionally drag. Kinda a pro-street build.

Tranny is a T5 currently that will blow up. Next will be a 4spd toploader until I can afford to put in something like a TKO. I also currently have a built posi 8" with 3.25 gears.

I plan to run to about 6500-7000.

Well it sounds like that supercharger is no longer on the table. Someone above recommended a twin screw, but will that mount remote? I'd have to run it on the driver side. I like the idea of the twin screw personally since they are more torque throughout the range, as opposed to higher RPM.

Ok, thats whatever then, just trying to reuse old parts lol. I was looking into the trigger wheel setups. I think someone here makes them (based on what I read last night). I also saw someone using a 2.3 cam sensor with a 200 gear pressed on, that way the oil pump is still being driven.

Twin screw blower/compressor can be remote mounted, dont expect to get anything KIT, there isnt go to be any. I made everything for mine, I had considered fitting it to a 250-2v engine I had at the time, but decided a crossflow would be easier. The blowers can be mounted side on if that helps. Ive tried turbos and the big cam carby route, but now Ive got a blower, Im sold on that, it works especially well with LPG (propane). I only run a Bosch electronic ignition which so far has be entirely adequate, I subscribe to the KISS principle.

 

[pmuller9]

So this would be a street car that I will occasionally drag. Kinda a pro-street build.

Tranny is a T5 currently that will blow up. Next will be a 4spd toploader until I can afford to put in something like a TKO. I also currently have a built posi 8" with 3.25 gears.

I plan to run to about 6500-7000.

Well it sounds like that supercharger is no longer on the table. Someone above recommended a twin screw, but will that mount remote? I'd have to run it on the driver side. I like the idea of the twin screw personally since they are more torque throughout the range, as opposed to higher RPM.

Ok, thats whatever then, just trying to reuse old parts lol. I was looking into the trigger wheel setups. I think someone here makes them (based on what I read last night). I also saw someone using a 2.3 cam sensor with a 200 gear pressed on, that way the oil pump is still being driven.

6500 to 7000 rpms puts the cams .050" duration in the 230s.
You would be looking at a solid lifter cam from Schneider.
Even with a supercharger, you want the peak Volumetric Efficiency up around 5000 rpm and let the supercharger take care of cylinder fill at lower rpms.

A Whipple twin screw W100AX supercharger would work very well.
The Whipple/Lysholm supercharger is a screw and auger rotor arrangement.

A little less expensive twin screw is the Eaton TVS R1320.
It uses two high helix, four lobe screws that compress air down the length of the supercharger case similar to the Whipple/Lysholm.

If you are going to use one of the Holley EFI system like the HP, the 60-2 tooth trigger wheel works best.
It is a matter of buying a universal wheel and machining the inside circle to fit on the back of your balancer using the 3 bolt holes in the hub of the balancer to mount it.

You can modify your distributor rotor by removing all but one vane for the cam sync pulse.
Then make a round flat cover to replace the distributor cap.

 

[StarDiero75]

6500 to 7000 rpms puts the cams .050" duration in the 230s.
You would be looking at a solid lifter cam from Schneider.
Even with a supercharger, you want the peak Volumetric Efficiency up around 5000 rpm and let the supercharger take care of cylinder fill at lower rpms.

A Whipple twin screw W100AX supercharger would work very well.
The Whipple/Lysholm supercharger is a screw and auger rotor arrangement.

A little less expensive twin screw is the Eaton TVS R1320.
It uses two high helix, four lobe screws that compress air down the length of the supercharger case similar to the Whipple/Lysholm.

If you are going to use one of the Holley EFI system like the HP, the 60-2 tooth trigger wheel works best.
It is a matter of buying a universal wheel and machining the inside circle to fit on the back of your balancer using the 3 bolt holes in the hub of the balancer to mount it.

You can modify your distributor rotor by removing all but one vane for the cam sync pulse.
Then make a round flat cover to replace the distributor cap.

Sounds like I'll be having another talk with Jerry lol. With that kinda RPM I expected to see a solid lifter cam. Whats the typical max RPM to run a hydraulic without having valve float issues or extremely high valve spring rates?

Ok so now I have something similar to shoot for. the Whipple is nice nut is very expensive. I for some reason couldn't really find much on the Eaton. The Whiple also looks like I can get it in a smaller packaging setup. which will be ideal.

I am not partial to the holley system at all, and would much prefer not gutting my expesive distributor lol. I'll just reuse it on another 200 sometime. What system would you recommend?
Well thats pretty slick to try that. I have a friend with a mini lathe that might be able to help me out with machining that down.

 

[StarDiero75]

Twin screw blower/compressor can be remote mounted, dont expect to get anything KIT, there isnt go to be any. I made everything for mine, I had considered fitting it to a 250-2v engine I had at the time, but decided a crossflow would be easier. The blowers can be mounted side on if that helps. Ive tried turbos and the big cam carby route, but now Ive got a blower, Im sold on that, it works especially well with LPG (propane). I only run a Bosch electronic ignition which so far has be entirely adequate, I subscribe to the KISS principle.

Thast kinda what I figured, which is what made the paradise wheels one appealing b/c they offer a kit but for the friction bearing design. If you got a crossflow you'd like to donate I'm happy to change gears here haha. How are you controlling the bosch ignition system? I'm not familair with it at all.

 

[aussie7mains]

The Bosch I use is the factory stuff as fitted to 1980s falcon sixes, it an Australian made module, its simple and reliable, My dizzy has a centrifugal advance in the normal way, but I have it fixed at 25 BTDC, they did come with a factory vacuum advance but I removed it. You can see it here. BTW I have two spare heads one block and a couple of cranks

 

[pmuller9]

Sounds like I'll be having another talk with Jerry lol. With that kinda RPM I expected to see a solid lifter cam. Whats the typical max RPM to run a hydraulic without having valve float issues or extremely high valve spring rates?

A hydraulic flat tappet cam can be run up to 6500 if the profile is not too radical, but the solid lifter cam profile can be a lot more aggressive and make more power than the hydraulic counterpart.

I just finished struggling with a hydraulic cam profile in "Pullin 300"s 300 six.
I had a fairly strong Beehive spring that I thought would be OK even though the exhaust valve retainer sat .050" higher than the intake.
The exhaust valve motion became unstable at 5200 rpm probably because of lifter pump up during valve float.
We ended up shimming the exhaust valve springs for another 20 lbs which resolved the problem.
Now the engine will rev cleanly up to 6500 rpm but that's not to say I'm losing power due to lifter bleed down.
And yes, we are using Johnson Lifters®.

The worst I've seen for this problem is the Lunati VooDoo cams where they are trying to run an aggressive solid lifter profile with a hydraulic lifter.
Not enough spring causes valve float and lifter pump up and enough spring to correct valve float creates lifter collapse. It's a "No Win" situation.

I'm done with hydraulic lifters on a high performance, competition six.
The next three big six competition builds you will see posted here will be solid Lifter roller cams. (I'm not suggesting a roller cam for you.)

Aside from the solid lifter cam providing more power, You can get solid lifters with a small hole in the lifter face to force oil onto the cam lobe.

One of the problems we have with the small six heads is valve spring retainer height not being high enough to accommodate the higher pressure valve springs needed for high rpm, high lift cams.

You need to measure the retainer height and also measure how much valve travel there is before the spring retainer hits the valve stem seal.
The retainer height will determine spring selection.
The valve travel will determine how much valve lift the cam can have.
We've had two members order custom longer valves from Manley to get the valve travel and springs needed for a 7500 rpm 200 six.

 

[pmuller9]

I am not partial to the holley system at all, and would much prefer not gutting my expesive distributor lol. I'll just reuse it on another 200 sometime. What system would you recommend?
Well thats pretty slick to try that. I have a friend with a mini lathe that might be able to help me out with machining that down.

I usually recommend either a Holley Terminator X or a Holley HP because all the other components needed to make a complete system are available from Holley and are plug and play without concerns of calibration.

There aren't that many other stand alone, universal Multi Port system out there for a six.
A few are using the DIYAutoTune Engine Management Systems MS3X357-C_BL but by the time you purchase the wire harness and all the sensors, you are closer in price to the Terminator X, and you still don't have a self-learning unit and missing other features that the Holley unit has.

The other thing I'm going to ask you to consider is running E85.
You can run more compression and it will act as an intercooler under boost resulting in more power.

 

[StarDiero75]

The Bosch I use is the factory stuff as fitted to 1980s falcon sixes, it an Australian made module, its simple and reliable, My dizzy has a centrifugal advance in the normal way, but I have it fixed at 25 BTDC, they did come with a factory vacuum advance butView attachment 18292 I removed it. You can see it here. BTW I have two spare heads one block and a couple of cranks

Hmm, I will keep that in the back pocket. Curious, what would you want for the crossflow head? Are you stateside?

 

[StarDiero75]

A hydraulic flat tappet cam can be run up to 6500 if the profile is not too radical, but the solid lifter cam profile can be a lot more aggressive and make more power than the hydraulic counterpart.

I just finished struggling with a hydraulic cam profile in "Pullin 300"s 300 six.
I had a fairly strong Beehive spring that I thought would be OK even though the exhaust valve retainer sat .050" higher than the intake.
The exhaust valve motion became unstable at 5200 rpm probably because of lifter pump up during valve float.
We ended up shimming the exhaust valve springs for another 20 lbs which resolved the problem.
Now the engine will rev cleanly up to 6500 rpm but that's not to say I'm losing power due to lifter bleed down.
And yes, we are using Johnson Lifters®.

The worst I've seen for this problem is the Lunati VooDoo cams where they are trying to run an aggressive solid lifter profile with a hydraulic lifter.
Not enough spring causes valve float and lifter pump up and enough spring to correct valve float creates lifter collapse. It's a "No Win" situation.

I'm done with hydraulic lifters on a high performance, competition six.
The next three big six competition builds you will see posted here will be solid Lifter roller cams. (I'm not suggesting a roller cam for you.)

Aside from the solid lifter cam providing more power, You can get solid lifters with a small hole in the lifter face to force oil onto the cam lobe.

One of the problems we have with the small six heads is valve spring retainer height not being high enough to accommodate the higher pressure valve springs needed for high rpm, high lift cams.

You need to measure the retainer height and also measure how much valve travel there is before the spring retainer hits the valve stem seal.
The retainer height will determine spring selection.
The valve travel will determine how much valve lift the cam can have.
We've had two members order custom longer valves from Manley to get the valve travel and springs needed for a 7500 rpm 200 six.

I honestly shoulda put a solid lifter cam in my car when I originally did it. I dont care for setting hydraulic lifters. My schneider lifters feel like solid lifters. I've never seen it compress, even with my weight on them. So when i set my 0 lash I don't even do the full 1/2 turn schneider says to do b/c the valve starts opening. I've triple checked, they're definitely hydraulic lifters. And I got the correct schneider springs to go with them. Solids are simpler. Off topic, I'm picking up a set of yella terras, can I put solid lifters on a hydraulic cam and not worry about it? I'm thinking about installing them since it'll be a bit before this new 200 gets built. Oh no worries, I've seen the process for a roller cam for these engines, no thanks.

I am aware the retainer is an issue. I had problems where it was eating the seal. I was using the original retainers, but have since fixed the problem using the 4.0 v6 retainers. This might actually be a problem switcvhing to the yella terras on its own. I already gotta order custom valves for the aussie head since the stainless port flow valves dont exist anymore and I'm putting the larger valves in the aussie. Still havent decided if I'm using 5/16" or 11/32" stems.

 

[aussie7mains]

No Im in Australia, east coast. A alloy head complete off an engine in OK condition would run to a $100 or so, reconed, around 500-600. However, given the difficulty of fitting it to a precrossflow block, you would be far in front getting a whole engine, that would run to around 300-400 as a runner.

 

[StarDiero75]

I usually recommend either a Holley Terminator X or a Holley HP because all the other components needed to make a complete system are available from Holley and are plug and play without concerns of calibration.

There aren't that many other stand alone, universal Multi Port system out there for a six.
A few are using the DIYAutoTune Engine Management Systems MS3X357-C_BL but by the time you purchase the wire harness and all the sensors, you are closer in price to the Terminator X, and you still don't have a self-learning unit and missing other features that the Holley unit has.

The other thing I'm going to ask you to consider is running E85.
You can run more compression and it will act as an intercooler under boost resulting in more power.

I just got off the phone with holley. The terminator x sounds like it'll work nicely. Then statnds the problem of still figuring out what to run the ignition system with. Which will likely need to be a stand alone crank and cam sensor. Now here begs the question, how much of a gain is it to have a coil on plug system? The hyperspark will connect to the terminator and run it just fine, it just wouldnt be the coil on plug. Is the juice worth the squeeze?

 

[StarDiero75]

No Im in Australia, east coast. A alloy head complete off an engine in OK condition would run to a $100 or so, reconed, around 500-600. However, given the difficulty of fitting it to a precrossflow block, you would be far in front getting a whole engine, that would run to around 300-400 as a runner.

The problem with the crossflow block is it has a different bell housing and all, right? I've seen the article for installing it on a precrossflow block, its fairly intimidating but I have a spare block I can practice on. if the head is only like $100, I'd be interested if you'r willing to help get it shipped here to Seattle

 

[aussie7mains]

Yes the bellhousing pattern on the Australian blocks is unique to us. There are bellhousings around to fit the , local BW35 auto trans (common) the 3 speed BW manual trans, the BW 4 speed locally made box, the USA 4 speed toploader, T5 manual box, some hydraulic, some cable clutches, all factory stuff. There are other aftermarket bellhousings too. Flywheel is same flange as SBF, starters are all high on our passengers side. I'm not done any shipping, however its a long way to Seatle from Melbourne. Mustang six (Jack Collins) had two crossflow sixes shipped from Perth to Orlando many years ago, I was involved in this in a small way, he did the first crossflow head onto the precross block many years ago. . If you look on FB market place you can turun up crossflows easily. Heres one ready to go:-https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1721908098270094/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A76c747cf-c63f-4529-84d7-bbe9cc05cd0f. And another:-https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/738443394714681/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A76c747cf-c63f-4529-84d7-bbe9cc05cd0f. This one has our local 4 speed box, these are good things.

 

[pmuller9]

I just got off the phone with holley. The terminator x sounds like it'll work nicely. Then statnds the problem of still figuring out what to run the ignition system with. Which will likely need to be a stand alone crank and cam sensor. Now here begs the question, how much of a gain is it to have a coil on plug system? The hyperspark will connect to the terminator and run it just fine, it just wouldnt be the coil on plug. Is the juice worth the squeeze?

The Terminator X controls the ignition timing and can be used to trigger the ignition system such as an MSD 6AL box if you decide to use the distributor for spark distribution.
If you are running boost the Terminator X will retard the timing as the boost increases.

The Hyperspark distributor delivers the same PIP signal as the stock Ford TFI system where one of the six pulses has a different duty cycle as the other five to mark the timing for cylinder #1.
If the Terminator X can decode the PIP signal, then it can run sequential injection and ignition.
If not, then it is stuck in Batch Mode, and you would have to use the distributor for spark distribution or you could use a Waste Spark distributorless ignition system.

The reason for getting rid of the distributor for spark distribution is to eliminate the rotor phasing concerns and the distributor cap failure problem due to carbon tracking that is common with a high energy ignition system with high cylinder pressure under boost.