First Impressions

[Beaus67]

Ok, after the first true test drive, the new engine runs strong, has great acceleration (more on this) and torque. Definitely have more hp at the rear wheels, but now for the problem. If you press the accelerator very slowly build up a few rpm’s then hit it, you’re set back in your seat. However, hard acceleration off the line, the engine just dies - as if it has a vacuum leak (which I spent many hours searching for). After positively confirming NO vacuum leaks anywhere, soooo I called my Ford friend who said “well lets drive it with a timing light connected and see what happens to the fire” and oh ya “at the same time let’s block the choke about 3/4 closed”. This was a real lesson in trouble shooting for me. We never lost spark and the vacuum advance is working beautifully (may actually have a bit too much advance, but one thing at a time.) now for the real culprit – with the carburetor 3/4 choked (rich mixture) this engine really wanted to open up off the line, I mean WOW! And no hesitation or flat spot, so obviously I’m not getting enough fuel out of this Weber 32/36 DGEV synchronous carb, I can only believe once I do it will run even better. My friend believes it may need cleaned, re-jetted, possibly a float issue, all of the above or? This is a brand new carb I said, but his attitude was “ya a lot of new carbs sit around for months or years and collect dust, dirt and rust before there sold. Just because it’s never been used doesn’t mean it’s new”. Sounds a little cynical I know but I guess years in the trade will do that. Anyway he’s going to go through it for me, I feel really fortunate to have a "go to guy" on this, my first rebuild. Just thought I would share my experience and see if anybody had any thoughts or comments. Looking forward to working out the bugs and getting the first 500 miles on it, it’s so much more fun to drive now it shouldn’t be hard to get through those break in miles.

Bill

Just before installation

 

[Invectivus]

beautiful engine.

I'd have said accelerator pump blocked or dribbling rather than spraying, but your guy probably would have caught it.

 

[xctasy]

As a fun background read, see this http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3&start=15

The carb is the 27 or 29 mm venturi DGES 38 mm Weber carb.

Before looking at the carb, triple check ignition.

Then Check
a) stable fuel pressure with your chosen regulator. Some regulators restrict fuel flow, and not just pressure. Some Holley fuel pressure regulators cause problems, so make sure that at 3.5 psi, you have full fuel flow.
b) Check the stock fuel pump flow again. Some times they are an issue. Since you can swap the pushrod and use a 350 Chev Carter, just pick up another fuel pump to check its not something really simple
c) Check if float level is correct. Some conditions mask other ones with Webers. As I've said, if the fuel regulator is not working, it might cause a starving situation, but do check the float level specs again.
d) check there is definately not any crud in the air correcters and idle bleeds. Webers are a very influenced by fuel and foreign body crud.

then e) its on to jetting.

If there are no issues with main jetting, then look at
f) alternative emulsion tubes.





The Weber is really just a better 350 Holley in terms of air flow and is more compact and uses simple jetting.

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

What is the curve in the Dist ( initial ) when does it start advancing ? when is it finished , what is the total ? , then where is the Vac adv hooked up , when does it start , when is it all in , and the total , Ignition needs to be done FIRST before carb tuning , Ignition effects Carb , Carb does not effect ignition , its so much more than bend a tab and ad a Mrg. Spring

 

[Beaus67]

Thanks for the information and comments.
The distributer is a bone stock DSII ordered from NAPA as if for a 78 Maverick with a 200. In fact the entire ignition system is NAPA including the blue strain relief module, also to simplify the wiring I bought a Painless harness. We ran the car with the vacuum advance hooked both ported and manifold, it seemed to respond best at the ported hook up but the difference was slight. Now as far as when it starts and where it ends up, I’m not sure, but I know the initial timing is set at 12* and I believe he said it advanced to 30* (?) and felt it was advancing a bit too far but I may be completely wrong on the advance because I was working the throttle and really not engaged at that point. His timing light has a dial on it that seemed to allow him to better see what was happening with the advance. I do know he felt the ignition system and advance were working well (just maybe advancing a bit too far). Like I said, when we drove the car with the choke 3/4 closed everything seemed to work perfectly, great off the line response with no flat spot, no hesitation, no pings, no backfires, nothing but good torque and acceleration. He did mention that it “looked” like the accelerator pump was squirting and we had about 5lbs of fuel pressure on the gauge, although it’s from a stock type Carter mechanical pump. I got the impression he felt the jets may need to be bigger (?) said he was going to do some research on jetting (among other things) for this carb and he also mentioned stuck or misadjusted float. Since we tested and eliminated the other systems there is no doubt in my mind that he believes fuel is the problem, specifically the carburetor and since he is not charging me for the expertise and help I’m happy to let him follow the path he has chosen (sounded kind of Zen there for a minute). I do appreciate the thoughts and comments given on this forum and I’m certainly not dismissing anybody’s now, but I think I’m going to trust my friends judgment and let him take my brand new carburetor apart if he so chooses. I’ll let you know how it all turns out.

Bill

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

So I guess what I said , means what , ? , OK tear the carb apart whatever , yep blunt , but I try to help and I really wonder why sometimes , have fun

 

[chad]

"...it’s from a stock type Carter mechanical pump..."
looked a lill different (bigger) from what I'm used to (don't mean it aint right), just a(n incorrect?) observation.
Nice clear pic of it too!

Good luck. Check back if needed after 'the ford man's" done. Yer sooo close now, bro! Congrats!!!

 

[JackFish]

There was a thread(s) here that started to compile some of the jetting that has been done on those carbs. Is it in a sticky?

 

[Beaus67]

Thanks Chad, I’m just going off the invoice I got from my local NAPA store which states “fuel pump/Carter” but I don’t have anything beyond that so it could be a NAPA part built by Carter or who knows what? Xctasy, thanks for the check list, and link (may have to read through that link several times before I start understanding what it all means). In your check list you talk about pressure and flow, I think we had the right pressure but flow was not checked so we will definitely be discussing your check list at our next visit. FalconSedanDelivery, It is sometimes difficult to read “tone” in an e-mail so if I’m wrong I apologize, but if you somehow got hurt feelings over this then I would suggest you don’t have the temperament to teach and should only offer advice or suggestions when you don’t expect anything in return emotionally or otherwise. I certainly was not dismissing anything you said - but I am lucky enough to have an actual person, from the era, who has owned and built these engines and also owns the local repair shop and has for the last 20 years, He’s been working on my cars for a long time and has my trust. I certainly meant nothing against you, I’m sure you’re very knowledgeable and a great guy once one gets to know you. Look at the bright side maybe he's wrong and it is ignition.

Bill

 

[170-3tree]

I would inspect fuel issues first, whether too lean or too rich off-idle. I assume its more of a bog-then-die situation you are having if it dies with off idle throttle jabs. I would look for too rich first.

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49901

I think this might help decode the mysteries of the weber carb for you and your friend to some extent.

While FSD might be right with something holding up the ignition, a stock replacement should be able to support any driving situation, even thought it might not be perfect, or most efficient, it should be able to handle an off-idle gunning.
I don't undermine FSD, but if the dizzy were the cause of this problem, and the ONLY cause I would be finding a refund since it is just a stock replacement.

Gerald

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

If anyone purchases a Rebuild Dist and has the slightest inclination that its optimized for their combo, You are sorely mistaken !! I use them as cores and THAT is all .By Not optimizing the Ignition FIRST , you are wasting time on the rest , your money , your time , I will start to limit my comments on Ignition since it goes unheeded and I'm wasting my time.

 

[wsa111]

I would inspect fuel issues first, whether too lean or too rich off-idle. I assume its more of a bog-then-die situation you are having if it dies with off idle throttle jabs. I would look for too rich first.

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49901

I think this might help decode the mysteries of the weber carb for you and your friend to some extent.

While FSD might be right with something holding up the ignition, a stock replacement should be able to support any driving situation, even thought it might not be perfect, or most efficient, it should be able to handle an off-idle gunning.
I don't undermine FSD, but if the dizzy were the cause of this problem, and the ONLY cause I would be finding a refund since it is just a stock replacement.

Gerald

You guys seem to never learn that a properly calibrated distributor is a must for any engine build.
FSD is 200% right in what he says.
I have been recurving distributors for many years & there is no distributor right for your application unless all the variables are known.
These junk rebuilds are a joke.
I could write a book on what is needed for many applications, but it always seems that the average guy just puts in a reman dizzy & cranks up the initial advance to 14 degrees & does not even know that the reman already has 30 degrees centrifigul in it for a total of 44 degrees, but also has a vacuum advance can with the long slot for an additional 24 degrees.
You need to get it custom curved after purchase for your application.
Sometimes after road testing it is often found that additional changes are necessary.
For instance there is also a setting on the vacuum advance can which controls when the vacuum reading reaches full advance as well as when it starts.
If you want to do some field testing you need a handheld vacuum pump so you can adjust the can close to what you need.
For instance borg warner has a V-397 & a V-398 one is a long slot & the other is a short slot. I have also installed a mechanical stop on the arm so to custom control the amount of total vacuum advance.
If you have an engine with 10.5 compression & a camshaft which provides 190# cranking compression i would start with 20 degrees mechanical starting @ 1000 rpms & a total of 2500 rpms on a stick shift & 2800 rpms with an auto trans with a loser converter. This combined with 16-18 degrees initial will get you in the ballpark. The vacuum advance is on a what you need basis.
If you have a radical camshaft i like manifold vacuum if it gives you a higher idle speed than ported, again depends on your application. Bill

 

[170-3tree]

I completely understand how important a properly tuned distributor. I am in no way downplaying that. I am saying that MANY people can drive a car on a stock dizzy. AND THEY DO. I wouldn't for any period of time longer than required, as I would drive the car to the place to have it curved so I can test it right then. I wouldn't ever hit a strip or dyno without having it checked and fixed accordingly.

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

Thanks Bill , I get frustrated when I want to help and I am offering for free that I normally charge for ( tuning advice ) I see so many times if it runs poor its the Carb / fuel system , I see combos started on here , then they have problems they cant figure out I offer advise its ignored , I put together the fastest Log head combo on here for lots less than a aluminum headed motor ( nothing wrong with them just out of reach of many budgets ) still ignored , like I said above I should suggest less just read.

 

[64 200 ranchero]

how much do you charge to recurve distributors?

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

pm me or e-mail me at TotalPerfEntofPa@aol.com

 

[170-3tree]

About $100 considered some of the cheapest power our engines can get honestly. Not to mention the added driveability and economy it can provide.

FSD and Will, I think that the message you are trying to convey is harder taken when few people have experienced the difference it can make. I am taking an engine performance class on this and I was the only person who had any idea that the curve mattered so much, thanks to you two honestly. Even after about an hour lecture on the subject, more than half the class still did not get the point. We took a school car with a hei setup and recurved it back to stock conditions and groups in the class were to drive it around the campus taking note of it.

After the whole class did this we put it on the dyno. Git something in the view of 235hp out of it. Curved the distributor back to the custom setup, and dynoed it again. 246hp. Decent gain even though it probably wasn't spot on again. Since the school doesn't have a machine, we just reversed our removal to make the point.

After seeing this we drove again in shifts, impressive difference in general performance. And now I am sold that the next time I drive with an uncurved dizzy, it will be just on the way to have it curved.

Just thought I would share my bit of story, for anyone. Now sorry for the WAY OVEREXTENDED thread jacking that just took place.

 

[Explorer]

As a fun background read, see this http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3&start=15

The carb is the 27 or 29 mm venturi DGES 38 mm Weber carb.

Before looking at the carb, triple check ignition.

Then Check
a) stable fuel pressure with your chosen regulator. Some regulators restrict fuel flow, and not just pressure. Some Holley fuel pressure regulators cause problems, so make sure that at 3.5 psi, you have full fuel flow.
b) Check the stock fuel pump flow again. Some times they are an issue. Since you can swap the pushrod and use a 350 Chev Carter, just pick up another fuel pump to check its not something really simple
c) Check if float level is correct. Some conditions mask other ones with Webers. As I've said, if the fuel regulator is not working, it might cause a starving situation, but do check the float level specs again.
d) check there is definately not any crud in the air correcters and idle bleeds. Webers are a very influenced by fuel and foreign body crud.
then e) its on to jetting.

If there are no issues with main jetting, then look at
f) alternative emulsion tubes.





The Weber is really just a better 350 Holley in terms of air flow and is more compact and uses simple jetting.

Totally agree. Every Weber carb I've ever owned does not like more than 3psi, 3.5 max. No matter what engine I've put them on. Thats including Jeeps and VW's.

 

[xctasy]

If you don't want to run a fuel pressure regulator, then you can use a return line fuel system as per European Pinto 2.0/Essex 3.0 post 1974 to 1986 practice. Our Aussie Weber carb Falcons from 1982 to 1992 had a factory Carter fuel pump as per the US stud pattern, but with a return line. All DG series Webers (minted Bressell) made after 1974 had provision for a return line to ensure peak pump pressure was less than 3.5 psi, even if the pump produces 5 psi. That eliminates the fuel pressure regulator.The sizing of the return restrictor is the same on the ADM Weber34/34 and the DG series 32/36 and 38's used in Falcon 3.3 and 4.1s, Capri 2.0's and Capri 3.0's. You can buy XE/XF Falcon fuel pumps for small money, and open up the return line in your DGES 38 if youre having fuel flow problems. This also eliminates hot fuel handling and vapourisation problems.