Roller cam for 250

The Pin located items used in NASCAR racing are like this




Then there is Crower Groove Lock (crower sells a jig for the block at their site to install them)


and Jesel Keyway lifters


http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.p ... ers/keyway



The old Hemi kits (this from Relic Stew, a HAMBER, and its a 0.895" lifter 354 Hemi retainer kit) resulted in lifter bores like this




There are Argie slotted, dog bone. button type, and horizontal and vertical guide bar designs

Vertical link bar lifters for the CC in Ford sizes are 836-1 and 388-1, but the elimination kit is varied


http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP-Cams/249/836 ... oreDetails

and

http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP-Cams/249/838 ... oreDetails

and

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/c ... /make/ford
 
3 guys i know in Aus use Roller cams in Crossflows, Tighe Cams only sell semi finished cams, that much i can tell you. Jason Stoodley runs a Tighe Roller, Glenn Wazzmouth, Ken Moss and a mega build triple 50mm crossie is almost complete from Brad on Australian Ford Forums, this motor is epic and nothing under 280@50 is suffice, should see his tapered manifold, so the roller cam aussies are going strong, 2 of the guys i race with, Ken and Glen both do low 7’s over the eighth, Ken has run 11.15 over qtr aspirated in Cortina and Wazza has run 11.4s injected throttle body set up over qtr in big XE falcon, 5 seconds faster than me over the eighth. If you sink the $$$$$ into a crossflow, the results speak for themselves, a turbo 200 was running mid 8’s over qtr years ago. Now that is impressive, i have seen 565 big block chevs with 400 spray only just match those times of the turbo 200.
 
xctasy":ndwns2to said:
For cylinders 1 and 6 in the non cross flow block, it means the link bar won't fit through.

You can use the old draft tube boss every small six hand, and loop a side oiler or water-er line on 1 and 6 so you can run the link bar through.

That might give you the space. You are amply smart enough to make success from whatever your hands find for you to, but I'd never use anything but a end extenal means of making sure that roller lifter doesn't spin, and a link bar isn't what the Argentinians use, and they are way more budget constrained than us.
 
xrwagon":3mnm54zi said:
, Tighe Cams only sell semi finished cams, that much i can tell you.

I bought a finished roller cam from Tighe Cams about a year & a half ago. They will supply a semi finished cam or a completed one
it just depends what you wan't .
 
Well, to set the record straight, Tigue sells a finished roller Today. They quoted three cams, w/ the first being the most street friendly: Whatever crazy format they used for the cam card doesn't transpose here well at all. It is confusing, I'll elaborate below:

d:\work files\cam profiles\Pushrod Roller\R0972.CPP
LIFT DUR. OPEN CLOSE AREA
Lobe E1 ----- ------ ----------- ----------- ------
C/L 112.00 ATDC 0.004 295.14 33.28 BTDC 81.85 ABDC 24.82
Runout 0.00160 0.006 286.18 29.44 BTDC 76.75 ABDC 24.80
Lift @ TDC 0.0516 0.008 279.69 26.50 BTDC 73.20 ABDC 24.78
Valve Lash 0.0180 0.010 274.26 24.02 BTDC 70.24 ABDC 24.75
R ratio 1.73 0.012 269.71 21.95 BTDC 67.76 ABDC 24.73
L/S 114.0 0.014 265.72 20.13 BTDC 65.59 ABDC 24.70
Minimum Flat 0.016 262.13 18.53 BTDC 63.60 ABDC 24.67
Follower Dia. .8279 0.018 258.81 17.03 BTDC 61.78 ABDC 24.64
0.020 255.73 15.62 BTDC 60.11 ABDC 24.62
0.040 232.60 4.81 BTDC 47.79 ABDC 24.28
0.050 224.08 0.63 BTDC 43.45 ABDC 24.09
0.100 190.73 15.91 ATDC 26.64 ABDC 22.86
0.200 133.77 44.59 ATDC 1.63 BBDC 18.58
0.300 51.62 86.08 ATDC 42.30 BBDC 8.03
0.31584 --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---
0.52840 --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

d:\work files\cam profiles\Pushrod Roller\R1380C.CPP
LIFT DUR. OPEN CLOSE AREA
Lobe E1 ----- ------ ----------- ----------- ------
C/L 116.00 BTDC 0.004 360.73 105.68 BBDC 75.05 ATDC 25.68
Runout 0.00050 0.006 343.83 98.50 BBDC 65.33 ATDC 25.63
Lift @ TDC 0.0422 0.008 327.38 91.25 BBDC 56.13 ATDC 25.57
Valve Lash 0.0240 0.010 310.76 83.89 BBDC 46.88 ATDC 25.49
Rocker Ratio 1.73 0.012 295.27 78.14 BBDC 37.13 ATDC 25.41
Lobe Separation ----- 0.014 282.68 73.93 BBDC 28.75 ATDC 25.32
Minimum Flat 0.016 274.51 70.75 BBDC 23.76 ATDC 25.26
Follower Dia. 0.8730 0.018 268.32 68.19 BBDC 20.13 ATDC 25.21
0.020 263.36 65.98 BBDC 17.38 ATDC 25.16
0.040 233.39 52.14 BBDC 1.25 ATDC 24.71
0.050 223.55 47.41 BBDC 3.86 BTDC 24.48
0.100 188.14 30.12 BBDC 21.98 BTDC 23.13
0.200 133.85 3.12 BBDC 49.27 BTDC 18.97
0.300 64.40 31.48 ABDC 84.12 BTDC 10.02
0.32962 --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---
0.54624 --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

Now admittedly, I don't know that much about a cam by looking at a cam card, and I don't know which of the two charts applies to the exhaust vs the intake specs....( I asked Dean Tigue for clarification on this) but this was the first cam of the three they quoted.

The second one was quoted w/ a footnote stating that I'd need a higher stall converter:
d:\work files\cam profiles\Pushrod Roller\R0972.CPP
LIFT DUR. OPEN CLOSE AREA
Lobe I1 ----- ------ ----------- ----------- ------
C/L 116.00 BTDC 0.004 319.27 90.50 BBDC 48.77 ATDC 27.23
Runout 0.00100 0.006 308.46 86.32 BBDC 42.14 ATDC 27.21
Lift @ TDC 0.0550 0.008 300.52 83.02 BBDC 37.49 ATDC 27.18
Valve Lash 0.0220 0.010 294.10 80.24 BBDC 33.85 ATDC 27.15
Rocker Ratio 1.73 0.012 288.74 77.86 BBDC 30.88 ATDC 27.12
Lobe Separation 114.0 0.014 283.99 75.74 BBDC 28.25 ATDC 27.09
Minimum Flat 0.016 279.72 73.84 BBDC 25.88 ATDC 27.06
Follower Dia. 0.9384 0.018 275.96 72.12 BBDC 23.84 ATDC 27.03
0.020 273.19 70.54 BBDC 22.65 ATDC 27.00
0.040 245.63 58.54 BBDC 7.08 ATDC 26.60
0.050 236.16 53.94 BBDC 2.21 ATDC 26.39
0.100 200.33 36.38 BBDC 16.04 BTDC 25.07
0.200 143.83 8.42 BBDC 44.60 BTDC 20.85
0.300 73.55 27.13 ABDC 79.32 BTDC 11.92
0.33506 --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---
0.55766 --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

d:\work files\cam profiles\Pushrod Roller\R0972.CPP
LIFT DUR. OPEN CLOSE AREA
Lobe E1 ----- ------ ----------- ----------- ------
Centerline 112.00 ATDC 0.004 295.14 33.28 BTDC 81.85 ABDC 24.82
Runout 0.00160 0.006 286.18 29.44 BTDC 76.75 ABDC 24.80
Lift @ TDC 0.0516 0.008 279.69 26.50 BTDC 73.20 ABDC 24.78
Valve Lash 0.0180 0.010 274.26 24.02 BTDC 70.24 ABDC 24.75
Rocker Ratio 1.73 0.012 269.71 21.95 BTDC 67.76 ABDC 24.73
Lobe Separation 114.0 0.014 265.72 20.13 BTDC 65.59 ABDC 24.70
Minimum Flat 0.016 262.13 18.53 BTDC 63.60 ABDC 24.67
Follower Dia. 0.8279 0.018 258.81 17.03 BTDC 61.78 ABDC 24.64
0.020 255.73 15.62 BTDC 60.11 ABDC 24.62
0.040 232.60 4.81 BTDC 47.79 ABDC 24.28
0.050 224.08 0.63 BTDC 43.45 ABDC 24.09
0.100 190.73 15.91 ATDC 26.64 ABDC 22.86
0.200 133.77 44.59 ATDC 1.63 BBDC 18.58
0.300 51.62 86.08 ATDC 42.30 BBDC 8.03
0.31584 --- PEAK CAM LIFT ---
0.52840 --- PEAK VALVE LIFT ---

Now the second cam makes more sense because he has indicated ( in blue) a separate set of exhaust values set apart from the intake specs . While I think it's a typo, The first appears to have two sets of exhaust specs as opposed to the second cam.
So, if I assume he has made a typo on cam 1, this is how I break the two down into my understanding:
Cam #1
I lift: .528
E lift: .546
C/L: 112
I Dur at .050 224
E dur at .050 223
From what I know about a turbo, this cam doesn't look as turbo friendly,...looks more like a N/A cam.

Cam 2:
I lift: .557
E lift:.528
C/L 116
I Dur at .050 236
E dur at .050 224

To me, this is a turbo cam, biased more to the intake event w/ a wider lobe separation.

The third cam specs for even more stall, and that goes opposite to what I'm looking for for my street car, so I'm not gonna list its' specs here, as I'm not interested in it.

They've quoted the price at $520.00 AUD, which is about 460.00 USD at current exchange rates, They are waay high on shipping though speculating that it'll cost 220.00 AUD for shipping, when Crow quoted 80.00 USD to do the same.
Surely, Queensland isn't so much farther away from here to command an extra 114.00 to ship something. :unsure:
 
my quote for a Hyd cam from Tighe last week was $280, i live one and half hours away from Tighe, the cam i am thinking about is the speedway cam, 240@50 duration but only 445 lift on 108 lobe centres. My friend Rob had to get Wade or Clive cams to finish his solid roller crossy, maybe because of his specs, it is big, just under 280@50
 
https://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8404


Forget the theory, and use what works. I haven't fed those figures into a simulation program, I get Kelford to do all that.

There's probably only 30 hp difference between each cam.

An x-flow turbo cross flow loves duration, lift, and moderate lobe centers.

Copy george and MarkZE, who used the biggest at lash duration cams they could find, on a fairly wide lobe center. They didn't use the engine analyser programes. but it o pickes up on the best cam...its okay to go big duration and keep a moderate lobe centerline. On a computer program, the longest at lash duration with the 112 or 114 lobe center will work a treat.
See http://www.tildentechnologies.com/Cams/index.html

Wouldn't consider anything else.


I use a special Comp Cams HR 285 K code 289/Super Cobra Jet style roller cam knock off with a wider lobe center on my engines. The Mustang guys use it, and its reliable. On a canted valve engine, you have to be over 295 degrees or 235 at 50 thou to over cam it, the valve area is huge, and the chamber and power improvements are there compared to the non cross flow head. Detonation is the only canted valve bug bear, and running more duration is the solution to bleed off compression. Less duration will bring the power back to what it would be if it had an iron head, and detonation will be a constant threat.


A log head engine is just an FE engine, designed by the same team, and the Cleveland engine was the next bold step. The Aussie Cross flow is an A3 Yates head at a tenth the price, so feed it lift, fuel and duration, and give it some lobe center to build pressure. The detonation issue will be taken care of by conservative ignition timing, and following georges sensational 10.3 second Cortina as an example.
 
*UPDATE*

Well at initial first attempt, installing a linked roller lifter through one of the holes on either end of the block will be a challenge at least. Using the Xflow head gasket, I transcribed those hole sizes to the block. While the front is ample enough to get the lifter, and one attached link bar in the hole, at present size the rear is a no-go.
Even after getting the front lifter in the hole with the link bar attached, the simple task of just holding the link bar at the right angle, while trying to get the other lifter in the other hole (along with your fingers) and then hold the bar up at an angle to allow linking was more frustrating than I wanted to allot anymore time to last night.
Besides,.....there are other "obstacles" to deal with.

The link bar attaching point on the lifter itself even w/o the link bar attached hits the block at the bottom of the wall at right on top of the lifter bore. While this appears minimal and can be clearance'd w/ a die grinder, and a long shank carbide burr. I can't help thinking why would I do that if I can't get the lifters in, and out of the block w/o devoting a couple of hours to that task?

That brings me back to my original plan to cut access windows in the side of the block in the shape of an oval directly over what would be where two sets of lifters would have to attach.
40fn.jpg


After the holes were cut, I'd hope that I'd be able to get at the opposing lifter for two cylinders at a time. To cover, I'd just make another plate that will span the length of the block and liberally bolt the thing to the side after I sealed it w/ some form of silicone gasket maker. As opposed to several smaller cover plates, I think one plate will add back any integrity that I may have lost from butchering several big assed oval holes in the side of the block.
For one, I'd have to imagine that those holes would make getting the lifters in, and back out less of a pain in the ass. Another reason to do that is that I'd be better able to observe, and clearance any point of contact either made by the lifter, or it's attached link bar.
Lastly, Since I'm using a custom made copper H/G, I can enlarge that rear hole big enough to get the linked lifter in the hole w/ no detriment.

The other option of course is sucking it up, and buying the Crower button lifter. I don't know if I'll be able to get the jig in the two outside end holes though to drill the slot :nono:.
 
I had one engine builder in Oz tell me he uses the non-removable link bar style roller lifters in the non-crossflow builds he does, and those blocks don't have the additional open area along the deck for the pushrod clearancing like yours does. The removable link bar lifters are much easier to install. It just takes two simple tools. Show me a picture of how your trying to put them into the block.
 
CNC-Dude":1666lqfc said:
I had one engine builder in Oz tell me he uses the non-removable link bar style roller lifters in the non-crossflow builds he does, and those blocks don't have the additional open area along the deck for the pushrod clearancing like yours does.
It would be impossible to install non-removable link bar roller lifters in a standard, unmodified 250. How would you even get the linked lifter past the centrally located water riser that is solid at the deck, and between every bank of lifter bores. I think your Australian engine builder smokes crack. If there's any pictures of that, I'd be really interested to see it.
The removable link bar lifters are much easier to install.
It just takes two simple tools. Show me a picture of how your trying to put them into the block.

Yeah, I'd consider them easier to install than the linked ones as well,....considering it can't be done w/o cutting a huge hole in the side to allow the lifters to go in as one unit, at least w/ some perserverance, I believe that the removable LB lifters could be relinked once they're in the holes.

I really don't have a pic,...I link the one lifter and stick it in the hole, then w/ a magnet, I drag the link bar over and grab it w/ some articulated long reach needle nose pliers. After trying to get the other lifter in the hole is where it just gets too crowded the way I'm doing it. If you can give me a suggestion before I chuck up the 2" hole saw, I'm all ears.
 
The lifters are a Comp Cams solid roller lifter unit with EDM oil feed and removable tie bars for easier maintenance. Does this help? From Robs page on Ford Forums.
 
A retractable magnet and one of those spring loaded parts grabbers will go a long way to making it a lot easier.
 
OK, Just spent another hour messing with this thing. I'm now considering this:

At the top of the block between the side of the lifter galley and the water riser cut out an 1/8" slot to allow the linked lifter to drop through. From the side, after the plate is added along the top side to reinforce the opened up lifter galley drill and tap two 10-32 holes into the water passage through the plate, through the epoxy and drop in a 1/8" filler to fill the gap.
u4r1.png

There is no loss of integrity issues on that side of the block, and the 1/8" filler keeps the original spacing intact. Then any roller lifter, linked or otherwise will pass through.

I think I'm doing it.
 
Looks like a very good plan, Mike.

You can slot stock Solid roller lifters, and run 12 bolts in the block, and retain it this way.



It all comes down to whats best with the pre-crossflow block. As soon as you've had to clearance the whole block to suit the splayed X-flow pushrods, then the easier it is get at the lifter gallery.

I'm an advocate of the SP 221 Ford non cross flow and 230 Chev (Short stroke US 250 Chev) method the Argentinians use because is cost effective, and a simple bolt, and cut slot into a lifter is much easier.

Again, its all down to what YOU feel comfortable with.
 
xctasy":3o7zsfog said:
Looks like a very good plan, Mike.

You can slot stock Solid roller lifters, and run 12 bolts in the block, and retain it this way.



It all comes down to whats best with the pre-crossflow block. As soon as you've had to clearance the whole block to suit the splayed X-flow pushrods, then the easier it is get at the lifter gallery.

I'm an advocate of the SP 221 Ford non cross flow and 230 Chev (Short stroke US 250 Chev) method the Argentinians use because is cost effective, and a simple bolt, and cut slot into a lifter is much easier.

Again, its all down to what YOU feel comfortable with.

I think you are painting what I'm priming here,....but just to be clear.......
m15k.jpg

I'm talking about cutting the deck of the block, and afterwards inserting 1/8 filler blocks back into the void to restore the gap. Those blocks made to be removeable to act as a gateway for a linked pair of roller lifters to pass by, then close the "gate" back, by re-inserting the blocks and bolting it back closed.

Years ago I'd never been comfortable w/ butchering any block to the extent I've went w/ this one over worries that I'm screwing something up. But as I've become older and wiser...( I find it take less than two licks to get the the chewy, choclatey center of a Tootsie pop),....I'm pretty much OK w/ going ahead and trying to reinvent the wheel here. Since I decided to try and make an engine originally rated to barely make 100 HP, now have to make 3-4 times that, and 4-5 times it's rated TQ,...I's say the entire project requires a little thinking out of the box anyway. And I do feel pretty comfortable with it, thank you.
( I'm so far outside the box w/ this one,...I forgot what the box looked like.) :LOL:

I suppose I could continue to try and dick w/ trying to get the link bar attached through the hole, but I see that I'm gonna want to do this process more than one time. Even after pullling out what hair I've got left to get even one lifter linked (in any set of holes BTW), I can only imagine what kind of PITA that would be should I have to remove oily lifters on an installed engine in the bay. The little removable inserts will make that as easy as letting the dog out.
 
xrwagon":1c63b2st said:
its called ingenuity, you appear to have it in spades, i hope this works really well
Thank you sir.

I suppose I could've also had the CC lifters slotted by my machinist, and drilled and tapped the block to accommodate 12 bolts to retain them. To me that process stands to create the opportunity to mess up more easily, as the precision required to perfectly line up 12 holes would require that the block be at the machinist as well.( and even then, requires a fair amount of careful consideration as to where to locate that bolt.)

Alternatively, since I'm not messing w/ critical tolerences, cutting those pathways for the linked lifter to get by can almost be done w/ some form of power hand tool I'd imagine. ( I haven't decided on which as of yet)

Thinking about rough cutting w/ a jig saw, then coming back w/ a carbide burr in my ghetto bridgeport to finish the opening. Or I can try a metal cutting blade/wheel in my circular saw. A 1/8" wide blade in that thing could be more accurately controlled by simply bolting a "fence" to the deck to butt the saw against. If I can't get the cut to square up at the thickness of the insert, whether that be .125,or even .187, then I guess I'll have to load it up and take it to him anyway, but at least I can attempt the modification by myself first.
 
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