Turbos and. Fords

S

sdiesel

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It's likely the wrong section to park this in, but I would be a nobody , going completely unnoticed through life if I don't break rules periodically.

May I suggest we commence a list of all turbocharger models that have been successfully used with the Ford six.
Then make it a sticky.

I reviewed some of my very own originated threads, and came across one, where years ago, I suggested we turbocharge a six. It was unheard of at the time.
Now.....
In keeping with my deleterious temperament and a penchant for goading others into doing what it is I myself should be doing, I have yet to turbocharge anything. Not even my motivation.
Due in part because the blossoming of technologies, in part the plethora of different build choices,
In part due to advancing information on parts combinations, in part the above mentioned lack of character;
I hesitate to make a move, as things improve on a pace faster than I can keep up with.
But
A listing of various turbos , their sizes , piping and so on might be very valuable to the game we play here.

Very valuable indeed as more fellows with great skill , motivation, and character, arrive at our board enhancing it as they discover our little corner of the automotive world and the fascinating inline six.
Was I long-winded enough?
 
The turbo size range for a 300 six can be any where from 49 mm to 66 mm for the compressor inducer diameter.
It depends on the operating rpm power range and the breathing capacity on the induction system which includes the head flow and cam combination.
The turbo listing would have to include the associated engine parameters to prevent being misleading.
Example: We don't want someone thinking a Holset HX40 is OK for a stock 300.

Then you have to look at Wastegates and Blow Off Valves (BOV).

The biggest obstacle is fabricating the exhaust manifold or header system.
 
Mostly to mark my spot...

I've been struggling with that complex matrix of turbo selection as well.
Compressor needs to flow a certain amount of air to meet power goal, at a boost level it can survive.
Turbine needs to spin fast enough to build boost in the desired range, but not create excessive restriction or require giant wastegate to bleed off exhaust.

I'm sure I'm oversimple in thinking a 2.5L engine that zings 7000 should want about the same as a 5.0L at 3500?

Holset was mentioned, and I think there have been builds (at least theorized) with HY35, HX35, HX40
Shamelessly stolen...

[image]https://mopar1973man.com/storage/attachments/monthly_2016_01/Trim.png.234b8f8d0bee25e193e3084061b28a4a.png[/image]

First off what do the numbers mean, for instance a 56/60/12?

The First number is the Diameter of the Compressor Inducer in Millimeters, in this case it's a 56mm compressor wheel.

The Second number is the Diameter of the Turbine Exducer in Millimeters, in this case it's a 60mm turbine wheel.

The Third number is the exhaust housing size in cm2, I'm not going to go into this, but generally speaking, bigger equates to laggier down low, but more power up top.


There can also be Letters at the end like 'W', that gives us more information about the Turbine housing.

'W' Stands for wastegated.
'D' Stands for Devided.
With that newfound information, lets get started.

WH1C (56/60/12WD)
The WH1C is found on 94 and some 95 Cummins, it is basically identical to the HX35 except it has a V-Band Compressor housing.

The Turbine housing is a 12CM housing, is divided and has an internal wastegate.

HX35 - 8 blade (56/60/12WD)
The 8-blade HX35 is found on 95-98 12 Valve Cummins. You can normally tell them apart because the wastegate canister is mounted on the turbine housing, where as the 7-blade's wastegate canisters mounts on the compressor housing.

The Compressor is a 8 Blade 56/82 wheel. Due to the larger exducer, this wheel is not interchangeable with the 7-blade design.

The Turbine is a 12 Blade 60/70 wheel

The Turbine wheel has the older 'straight blade' design, they spool faster but don't flow as well.

The Turbine housing is a 12CM housing, is divided and has an internal wastegate.



HX35 - 7 blade (56/60/12WD)
The 7-blade HX35 is found on 98.5-02 24 Valve Cummins. You can normally tell them apart because the wastegate canister is mounted on the compressor housing, where as the 8-blade's wastegate canisters mounts on the turbine housing.

The Compressor is a 7 Blade 56/76.5 wheel. Due to the smaller exducer, this wheel is not interchangeable with the 8-blade design.

The Turbine is a 12 Blade 60/70 wheel

The Turbine wheel has the older 'straight blade' design, they spool faster but don't flow as well.

The Turbine housing is a 12CM housing, is divided and has an internal wastegate.



HY35 (54/58/9W)
The HY35 is found on '00-02 24 Valve Cummins with an Automatic Transmission.

The Compressor is a 7 Blade 54/76.5 wheel

The Turbine is a 12 blade 58/65.5 wheel

The Turbine wheel has the newer 'curved blade' design, they flow better, but don't spool quite as fast.

The Turbine housing is a 9CM housing, is undivided and has an internal wastegate.


HE341 (56/58/9W)
The HE341 is found on '03-04 24 Valve Cummins.

Most HE341 Compressors are a 7 Blade 56/76.5 wheel. Very few have the smaller HY35 54/76.5 wheel.

The Turbine is a 12 blade 58/65.5 wheel

The Turbine wheel has the newer 'curved blade' design, they flow better, but don't spool quite as fast.

The Turbine housing is a 9CM housing, is undivided and has an internal wastegate.



HE351 (60/58/9W)
The HE351 is found on 04.5-07 5.9L 24 Valve Cummins.

The Compressor is a 7 Blade 60/84.5 wheel

The Turbine is a 12 blade 58/65.5 wheel

The Turbine wheel has the newer 'curved blade' design, they flow better, but don't spool quite as fast.

The Turbine housing is a 9CM housing, is undivided and has an internal wastegate.


Holset HX40 Vs HX40 Super:

HX40 Super Has Billet Wheel (60mm x 86mm)
HX40 7 blade has Cast Wheel, (Same Measurements and Profile) (60mm x 86mm)
HX40 Super Has 10 Blade 64mm x 76mm Turbine
HX40 7 blade Regular Has 12 Blade HX40 64mm x 76mm Turbine

The Turbine housing is a 16CM housing, is undivided and has an internal wastegate. LOTS of T3/4 housing options.



9cm^2 - .48 A/R (HY35)
12cm^2 - .63 A/R (HX35)
16cm^2 - .83 A/R
18cm^2 - 1.00 A/R
22cm^2 - 1.15 A/R
 
I have been told the Borg Warner T179079 off of International Navistar T466 diesel sixes will work, but would be on the large side. These can be found on school buses, reefer trucks, and armored trucks in junkyards for cheap, under $100. They are also easily pulled, as the hang off the side of the engine. Pulling a turbo off a powerstroke is nearly impossible without pulling the cab or engine.

Otherwise, I am turbo-stupid. I will be keeping tabs on this thread though, as I want to learn.
 
Firepower354":3gxa8rhl said:
I'm sure I'm oversimple in thinking a 2.5L engine that zings 7000 should want about the same as a 5.0L at 3500?
Click to expand...
It would be true if the Volumetric Efficiency (% of cylinder fill) is the same for the 2.5l engine at 7000 rpm as it is for the 5.0l engine at 3500 rpm.

The stock 300 six has a peak VE between 1800 and 2000 rpm and falls off from that point.
You can complement the 1000 to 3500 stock power band by using a 49 to 52 mm turbo or you can push the peak power by using a slightly larger 54 mm turbo.
If you raise the power band with a larger cam which moves the peak VE up in rpm then you can look at the 56 and 57 mm turbos.
Using a ported big valve head with a much larger cam will allow the 60+ mm turbos.

Here is the best calculator and tool for turbocharging.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarke ... sin=92044&

The 300 six produces very wide power bands and if you want to take advantage of that fact a turbocharger with a wide operating range or wide compressor map should be used.
The Borg Warner and Holset turbos fit that criteria. Garrett turbos are close and offshore turbos brands are an unknown.
Racing brand turbos are used on more narrow power band engines.

Turbos designed to operate on diesel engines which have low rpm operating ranges like the Holset have smaller turbines to produce high boost at low rpm.
The 300 six will work fine with the smaller turbine housings if you are trying to produce boost at low rpm but will be a restriction for higher rpm power applications.

Holset uses the cross-sectional area of the inlet to the turbine which is 90* from the rotating center as the indicator for turbine response.
Examples: 9cm2, 12cm2 (Most times the 2 is left off with the understanding that it is cm squared)
Most other manufactures use A/R which is the ratio of the cross-sectional area to the radius from the centerline to the center of the cross-sectional area.
Examples: A/R = .63, .84

Read pages 6 thru 12 in the following Garrett catalog for a good start to understanding turbocharging.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ddqnkqmf0yjrp ... .pdf?raw=1
Garrett also has a good tech section. see the Basic, Advanced and Expert sections.
https://www.garrettmotion.com/turbochar ... rbo-works/

Firepower354. Thank you for your post.
 
pmuller9":25lmrhng said:
Firepower354":25lmrhng said:
I'm sure I'm oversimple in thinking a 2.5L engine that zings 7000 should want about the same as a 5.0L at 3500?
Click to expand...
It would be true if the Volumetric Efficiency (% of cylinder fill) is the same for the 2.5l engine at 7000 rpm as it is for the 5.0l engine at 3500 rpm.

The stock 300 six has a peak VE between 1800 and 2000 rpm and falls off from that point.
You can complement the 1000 to 3500 stock power band by using a 49 to 52 mm turbo or you can push the peak power by using a slightly larger 54 mm turbo.
If you raise the power band with a larger cam which moves the peak VE up in rpm then you can look at the 56 and 57 mm turbos.
Using a ported big valve head with a much larger cam will allow the 60+ mm turbos.

Here is the best calculator and tool for turbocharging.


Firepower354. Thank you for your post.
Click to expand...



I checked closer and this lil rascal is 46mm, likely not enough even for my typical 750-2500 RPM driving.

I added the HX40 info that I could find. Pretty big unit. Mostly used on the 7L/ISC/6CT Cummins and the hotter 6L marine only, closer to the DT466 mentioned by BB94.

Thanks for the BW link. I need to see what the real nice one I got with my 8.1L PSI/Kohler gen engine. Natural gas at 1800 RPM, probably not far from what a tougher 300 build, speculating. 54/81/60 aboot like an HX35
 
Conversions:

To make each 100 hp

Different sources use different figures. The four below are most common, and are expressing the same amount of air, essentially.
150 cfm
12.105 lb/min
.0708 m3/sec
.0917 kg/sec
 
Im using a gt35 turbo on my build with a ported head and a good cam. I spin my engine to 6k currently. My turbo has a 64mm compressor. I will be upgrading to a 78mm soon but I use my engine for drag racing. My gt35 has full boost by 2200prm from a stop and even lower when driving around. The response is great in my setup
 
Twinturbor":1l5hon1i said:
Im using a gt35 turbo on my build with a ported head and a good cam. I spin my engine to 6k currently. My turbo has a 64mm compressor. I will be upgrading to a 78mm soon but I use my engine for drag racing. My gt35 has full boost by 2200prm from a stop and even lower when driving around. The response is great in my setup
Click to expand...


...and which cam is that you are using??

So to get all the choir on the same page we must
A. Determine head flow capabilities
B. Spec a cam that can use that flow, based I guess on rpm targets
C. A turbo that can accommodate the cam?
Or is this backward
 

May I suggest we commence a list of all turbocharger models that have been successfully used with the Ford six.
Then make it a sticky.

the success Buick had with the pushrod V6 GN series 231 cid turbo car was preceded with the same pushrod V6 with Draw-Thru carbureted turbo cars from the BOP part of the GM .

The carbureted' late 70's early 80's USA - "BOP" Draw-Thru forced induction 231 CID V6's (later Grand Nat'l) used a specially built Thermo-Quadrajet with External Power Valve boost reference and a WOT rating of 850 CFM. Unlike typical carb'd Blow-Thru, with Draw-Thru turbo, the transition from no-boost cruise to full boost requires huge CFM differences, also the carb has no pressurization of carb bowl so a steady fuel volume at low pressure is all that is needed. Unlike typical Blow-Thru setups, the Draw-thru intake would Ice up the plenum (Bernouli effect?) and Plenum needed engine coolant circulation for operation.

Ford 250 Small Block Six


.

74 250 Maverick:
. .

.

setup lasted until @ 15-20 PSI of boost at which piston ring lands cracked off leading to sudden loss of power and cloud of oily mist across windshield ...

With a SCR of @ 9:1, the 'Effective Compression Ratio Chart" lists the effective CR at 20lbs boost at @ 21:1.




have fun
 
So, I just finished putting together my turbo build on a stock 300. The only change to the engine is a set of chevy 6 rockers.
I'm running an ebay turbo with these specs,

Specifications
Compressor Size:
* Trim: 57
* Inducer Diameter: 56.6 mm
* Exducer Diameter: 75 mm
* A/R: 0.7


Turbine Size:
* Exhaust (Turbo Manifold) Flange: Standard T3 Flange
* Exhaust (Downpipe) Flange: V Band Flange
* Trim: 62
* Inducer Diameter: 74.4 mm
* Exducer Diameter: 58.4 mm
* A/R: 0.82

I'm running an Offenhauser intake and Holley super sniper, efi exhaust manifolds to a divided turbo flange.
 
pmuller9 said:
It would be true if the Volumetric Efficiency (% of cylinder fill) is the same for the 2.5l engine at 7000 rpm as it is for the 5.0l engine at 3500 rpm.

The stock 300 six has a peak VE between 1800 and 2000 rpm and falls off from that point.
You can complement the 1000 to 3500 stock power band by using a 49 to 52 mm turbo or you can push the peak power by using a slightly larger 54 mm turbo.
If you raise the power band with a larger cam which moves the peak VE up in rpm then you can look at the 56 and 57 mm turbos.
Using a ported big valve head with a much larger cam will allow the 60+ mm turbos.

Here is the best calculator and tool for turbocharging.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarke ... sin=92044&

The 300 six produces very wide power bands and if you want to take advantage of that fact a turbocharger with a wide operating range or wide compressor map should be used.
The Borg Warner and Holset turbos fit that criteria. Garrett turbos are close and offshore turbos brands are an unknown.
Racing brand turbos are used on more narrow power band engines.

Turbos designed to operate on diesel engines which have low rpm operating ranges like the Holset have smaller turbines to produce high boost at low rpm.
The 300 six will work fine with the smaller turbine housings if you are trying to produce boost at low rpm but will be a restriction for higher rpm power applications.

Holset uses the cross-sectional area of the inlet to the turbine which is 90* from the rotating center as the indicator for turbine response.
Examples: 9cm2, 12cm2 (Most times the 2 is left off with the understanding that it is cm squared)
Most other manufactures use A/R which is the ratio of the cross-sectional area to the radius from the centerline to the center of the cross-sectional area.
Examples: A/R = .63, .84

Read pages 6 thru 12 in the following Garrett catalog for a good start to understanding turbocharging.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ddqnkqmf0yjrp ... .pdf?raw=1
Garrett also has a good tech section. see the Basic, Advanced and Expert sections.
https://www.garrettmotion.com/turbochar ... rbo-works/

Firepower354. Thank you for your post.
Click to expand...
"The Borg Warner and Holset turbos fit that criteria. Garrett turbos are close" I have a friend doing the fitting for a turbo but undecided on which one. Can you give me an exact model number for a borg or Holset turbo that is sufficient for the 300? Please.
 
pmuller9 said:
Will this be for a stock 300 with a stock cam?
Carburetor or EFI engine?
Click to expand...
Stock 300, stock cam, for starters. Carburetor and EFI, 1 of each. I need 1 for ultimate fuel mileage, then will play with the other one for speed. Carb model has EFI exhaust with offy intake and motorcraft 2bbl. Thanks.
 
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The 52mm Borg Warner turbocharger is the S252SX-E with the T4 .68 A/R turbine housing.
 
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