Life-long Dream Morphs to Nightmare

MacDee

New member
My life-long dream is turning into a horrible nightmare!
The life-long dream has been to someday build a hot rod. Through a life of raising kids, paying bills, etc., and just “getting by”, that dream eventually solidified specifically into a Ford Falcon with a hopped-up 200 six. The first action to bring the dream into reality happened in 2001 when I purchased a not-too-bad 1963 Falcon hardtop with a 170 and Ford-o-matic 2-speed auto trans. For seven or so years, I had lots of fun with the Falcon, fixing her up so she looks pretty good (if you don’t get too close), and showing her regularly at the many local car shows during the summer.
The opportunity for the “hot rod” part came when both kids were both through college and the house was paid off. About two and a half years ago, the project began. The engine and transmission builds are a story unto themselves, but finally, last May (2010), the hopped-up six and the tricked-out C4 were installed.
The engine is a 200 with a Classic Inlines aluminum head and manifold, a 274-degree cam with 112-degree lobe centers, and Classic Inlines dual-out header. The carburetor I chose was the Holley 4160 390-cfm four-barrel. I bought this carb new from Summit Racing over a year ago, though for reasons I won’t go into here, the engine was not completed until May this year.
After installation, we couldn’t get the engine to idle very well. Let me state here that my expertise is pretty limited, but I had a lot of help from some very talented, experienced friends. The consensus, based largely on low vacuum readings, was that there must be some significant vacuum leaks. I managed to nurse the thing home (about a 30-mile trip from where the swap took place), and vowed to search out and correct all vacuum leaks… after I’d had some time to recuperate and restore my enthusiasm!
When I finally started looking for leaks, I couldn’t find any at any of the obvious places. Carb cleaner sprayed at the base of the carb resulted in nothing; likewise along the intake-to-head gasket. All vacuum hoses were fine. All unused vacuum ports were capped. Finally, I detected a response when I sprayed at the edge of the gasket between the carburetor main body and the throttle plate!
Upon removing the carb and turning it over, we saw what appeared to be six screws attaching the throttle plate to the main body, but two additional counter-bored holes where it looked like screws were missing. I believe now that this is normal, but at the time it seemed odd, and eventually we took the carb over to my engine builder’s house where he partially disassembled it to discover the top surface of the throttle plate wasn’t even machined very flat! He worked on the surface with some emery paper on flat bar stock while my other buddy tapped the holes in the main body where the screws seemed to be missing. My engine builder had an old Holley 4160 that he’d bought at a swap meet many years ago, sitting on a shelf. We scavenged two screws from it and put mine back together with eight screws instead of six.
We took it home and re-installed it. It still wouldn’t idle. If anything, it was worse.
My engine builder agreed to go through my carb more thoroughly, and suggested I try his old 4160. He had no idea what condition it was in since he hadn’t touched it since buying it at the swap meet, but I figured it was worth a try.
So, I took the swap-meet carburetor home (after swapping the screws back in) and installed it. It was missing the choke mechanism and all the fast-idle linkage, and it was also missing the ball-fitting on the throttle lever so I couldn’t hook up the gas pedal. However, by manipulating it from under the hood, I was able to get it started and warmed up. With that old swap-meet carburetor, I was able to get the engine running smoothly and idling nicely! I was STOKED!! At least I knew the problem was the CARBURETOR!
My engine builder finished going through my carb, found more “not-flat” surfaces that he corrected, but couldn’t find anything else obviously wrong. I took it home and tried it, but it STILL would not idle!
Okay, now I’m getting frustrated....
I’d decided that I was going to need to ship it back to Summit with an assertive letter and hope to get a replacement. While I was boxing it up, I discovered a tag inside the Holley box that stated, essentially, to NOT return it to its point of sale, but call the Holley Tech Hot Line. So I did.
I explained the problem I was having to the Holley technician and everything we’d done to try to correct it. He asked me to ship it to him, so I did.
Holley has now gone through it, and found “primary float too low… air 69% rich, fuel ok… …Reset float and air. Carb OK.” Hmm….
I just got it back, put it on, and tried it. It STILL WILL NOT IDLE!!! I can get it to almost run by turning the idle mixture screw out about four and a half turns, but it still won’t run below about 1200 rpm, and even then not very smooth.
My question: Has anyone on the Forum ever had a similar experience with a Holley carb on a similar set-up? If so, was there a solution? In the Forum’s opinion, what should be my next course of action?
Sorry for the long-winded story.
Near the end of my rope….
Thanks!
 
MacDee,

While I don't have the Aluminum head, I am running a OZ250 head and intake manifold with a Holley 4160 390CFM and I've had no problems with the carb at all.

I know you said you went through it, but double check any potential vacuum leaks. Also, double check your timing and verify TDC in relation to the damper. Then check that versus the relationship of the dizzy pointing at the #1 plug wire location. If your dizzy is off a tooth or two, it can cause this type of problem.

Speaking of which, why kind of ignition are you running? Hopefully not the load-o-matic. It has problems with this kind of set up.
 
Thanks, CobraSix.
Yeah, vacuum leaks.... Everyone tells me that, including the Holley tech. I've searched every place I can think of, but the only place where there seems to be a leak is between the carburetor main body and the carburetor throttle plate. If there is some other obscure place where a vacuum leak could occur, I'd like to hear about it so I could check it out!
Yeah, we've checked the timing, too. The marks are spot-on, and I've got it set at about 10 BTDC initial. The dizzy is a stock early-70's with mechanical plus vacuum advance. For now I've removed the vacuum advance (and capped the vacuum port, of course) just to take "timing" out of the equation. I'm currently running points, again to take "ignition" out of the equation, but a Pertronix kit is waiting once (if?) I ever get it running properly.
I will be trying another borrowed carburetor soon. I hope that will either confirm mine is a bad carburetor (Holley INSISTS that it is good), or confirm that I need to keep looking elsewhere.
 
MacDee":y59gql3o said:
My life-long dream is turning into a horrible nightmare!
The life-long dream

....

. My engine builder had an old Holley 4160 that he’d bought at a swap meet many years ago, sitting on a shelf. We scavenged two screws from it and put mine back together with eight screws instead of six.
We took it home and re-installed it. It still wouldn’t idle. If anything, it was worse.
My engine builder agreed to go through my carb more thoroughly, and suggested I try his old 4160. He had no idea what condition it was in since he hadn’t touched it since buying it at the swap meet, but I figured it was worth a try.
So, I took the swap-meet carburetor home (after swapping the screws back in) and installed it. It was missing the choke mechanism and all the fast-idle linkage, and it was also missing the ball-fitting on the throttle lever so I couldn’t hook up the gas pedal. However, by manipulating it from under the hood, I was able to get it started and warmed up. With that old swap-meet carburetor, I was able to get the engine running smoothly and idling nicely! I was STOKED!! At least I knew the problem was the CARBURETOR!

...

my carb, found more “not-flat” surfaces that he corrected, but couldn’t find anything else obviously wrong. I took it home and tried it, but it STILL would not idle!
Okay, now I’m getting frustrated....


... opinion, what should be my next course of action?
….
Thanks!

Have you offered to buy the "swap meet" carb from the builder?. How about E-BAy, maybe you will get lucky. I've had similar experiences with carbs having frustrating characteristics. I have a "Rebuilt" H/W 5200 that will not run right even when I swap all jets, etc from a crusty E-Bay 5200 that runs great. Solution was to clean up crusty and run with it...



If running a multi-carb setup I recommend "test installation" of individual carbs on a good running car before you try to get them to run together. Individual "characteristics" of the carbs can be compounded.

Have Fuun
 
Yeah I would have to agree on the "known good carb" suggestion.
I've been holding off on doing a 2bbl swap just because I wanted to get the engine running really well with the existing induction, and then proceed with the upgrades on that.
 
powerband":26peuhde said:
Have you offered to buy the "swap meet" carb from the builder?.

Yeah, powerband, I have seriously considered using the swap meet carburetor permanently. It's missing lots of things that would need to be tracked down and replaced, but the most serious problem is that the PCV port points directly at the export brace without enough room to put a hose on it. I just capped it for the test run. I would need to go back to a road tube crankcase vent if I used that carb permanently. Or, put a notch in the export brace?

Hmm... I'll have to think about that some more....

Thanks!
 
With it running fine with the known borrowed carb, I'd tell holley they are going to eat that bad one. as it has been proven to be bad.

everyone has thier preferences. I' have had good results getting used carbs(Edlebrocks and AFBs) on Fleabay and cleaning them.
They only have 2 body parts and 1 gasket.
 
as far as obscure vac leaks goes... i had an internal vac leak in my vacuum assist break booster... when i was having some issues i checked everywhere and couldnt figure it out. I dont even remember what cause me to look at the booster but when i did, there it was....
 
MacDee,
I agree with 80broncoman, send it back to Holley for replacement or refund. There could be a casting flaw, or poorly machined surface, or any number of things that could take forever to find, or never. Let them know that you have eliminated any problems on your engine setup by using another carb, and you only have a problem with theirs.
 
MacDee":2vunkl4p said:
I will be trying another borrowed carburetor soon.

We're also going to try my carburetor on a buddy's vehicle. That should prove SOMETHING once and for all!
 
Okay, we tried my carburetor on my buddy's pickup truck. It worked just fine....
I went back and borrowed the "swap meet" carburetor that seemed to work so well before. I think it may be more tolerant of whatever IS the problem, but it still runs so bad, even with that carburetor, that I'm now convinced the problem is NOT the carburetor.

I can get it to idle under 1000 rpm, but it's very unsteady. It needs to idle in neutral at about 1200 rpm or it will die when I put it in gear. Vacuum at "idle" is only about 10 in Hg. I can't find a vacuum leak. The dizzy is on the right tooth.

It is drivable (barely), but the only place I want to drive it is to the place that can find the problem and fix it! :banghead:
 
Valve timing? Is the whole cam off?
Check the cam timing, then make sure the valves are set right, and ALSO make sure they are opening fully. If the cam was sitting a long time I suppose it's possible it might have wiped a lobe on start-up...

When testing vacuum issues I usually start by blocking every possible path; you don't need vac advance to idle, you don't need brake boost when you sit and tune. You can usually eliminate everything with solid plugs and then really start looking for the gasket and other possible leaks. Once you find those, re-introduce the devices one at a time--nothing should change (except for when you hook up vacuum advance, a little, maybe).
 
What Greywolf said.
It's time to check some really basic stuff; at this point you really need to backtrack and start all over, beginning with cam timing and distributor phasing. A compression check is in order as well.
Joe
 
MacDee":1m0kn24l said:
powerband":1m0kn24l said:
Have you offered to buy the "swap meet" carb from the builder?.

Yeah, powerband, I have seriously considered using the swap meet carburetor permanently. It's missing lots of things that would need to be tracked down and replaced, but the most serious problem is that the PCV port points directly at the export brace without enough room to put a hose on it. I just capped it for the test run. I would need to go back to a road tube crankcase vent if I used that carb permanently. Or, put a notch in the export brace?

Hmm... I'll have to think about that some more....

Thanks!

The pcv port is part of the idle circuit. Remember, you are running a small engine with larger cam and that equals less manifold vac. PCV port allows extra air bypassing the throttle plates. Similar to a vac leak.

You should be able to use the idle mixture screws make it too lean, and, too rich. If you can't make it too rich, you aren't getting enough fuel or too much air. Cap the PCV and see what this does. Can you make it too rich?

The idle air bleeds come into play also, but that is a topic for later. But you might dissasemble the carb and spray Berrymans through the passages to check them.

You didn't mention compression.. An aluminum head dissapates more heat which acts like lower compression, and lowers vac also. I generaly run close to one full point more compression on aluminum head builds.

Just food for thought. Sometimes you need to give it what it's asking for and think about it from a different angle. Not offering answers, just inspiration. :)


More compression = more vac More timing = more vac Best idle mixture = more vac Better ignition = more vac
 
Stubby":17x1her6 said:
You should be able to use the idle mixture screws make it too lean, and, too rich. If you can't make it too rich, you aren't getting enough fuel or too much air. Cap the PCV and see what this does. Can you make it too rich?

I could not make it run too rich. I had the mixture screws almost falling out to get it to run at all! That was when the PCV was hooked up, though. I haven't tried that with the PCV port capped.


Stubby":17x1her6 said:
You didn't mention compression.. An aluminum head dissapates more heat which acts like lower compression, and lowers vac also. I generaly run close to one full point more compression on aluminum head builds.

I'm running 9.5:1 static compression. DCR is about 7.4:1. Trying to be conservative; maybe not such a good idea?

Stubby":17x1her6 said:
Just food for thought. Sometimes you need to give it what it's asking for and think about it from a different angle. Not offering answers, just inspiration. :)

Thank you, Stubby, for the inspiration. I've spent as much "time budget" on this as I can for a while, and have used up all my patience. Your thoughts and ideas will inspire me once I have some more time and recover my enthusiasm!
 
Perhaps it's time for an update....

Last autumn, I drove the car over to my engine builder's place and we checked the valve timing. It was right on. However, I also discovered a cracked push rod cup! We pulled the push rod and by the wear patterns determined that the ball of the adjuster screw had been riding up on the rim of the cup in the push rod, not down in the cup! I pulled all the push rods and did a check of the fit of each push rod-adjuster pair with machinist's bluing. I found HALF of them were riding on the rim! My thought was the valve adjustment was messed up because the adjuster screws would seat much deeper into the cups when the engine was running than when they were adjusted. Would this throw off the valve timing enough to account for the poor running?

Through Mike's recommendation, and Rockerarms.com concurrence, I sent the bad pairs to Rockerarms.com for them to investigate. Months pass, and I am without half my push rods and adjuster screws. In the meantime, I borrowed a stock rocker assembly and push rods from my engine builder (from a donor engine) and installed them. The engine still ran pretty bad, but was running well enough I decided to start driving it to car shows again to hopefully restore some enthusiasm. I worked with timing some more and got it running a little better, and on one test drive, the thing actually CAME TO LIFE! I was still having to keep my foot on the gas at stop signs, but on that one drive, with my foot in it, at I-don't-know-what RPM (tach wasn't installed yet), it was like someone lit the afterburner! Man, for a moment, it felt like a Cobra Jet!! I was STOKED!!

Later, I took my engine builder for a ride. It was running worse, and the "Cobra Jet" seemed to have gone back into hiding. Based on the way it ran, he thought the ignition was suspect. Based on that, I pulled the Pertronix, again, and put the points back in. After installing the points and tuning the best I could, it actually runs pretty good now! Not great, and the "Cobra Jet" is still missing, but she idles pretty well (900 in gear) without needing to keep my foot on the gas (y) . And it seems to be running consistently. (I think my Pertronix is possessed, or at least schizophrenic!!)

I believe now that I am in need of a REAL ignition system, so I'm planning an upgrade to DSII with a Capacitive Discharge box of some kind.
We'll see what happens then.

Oh, by the way, I've received new push rods and adjuster screws from Rockerarms, so I'll re-install my rocker shaft... maybe after I try out the new ignition.
 
You need (someone) to actually tune your combo instead of throwing money at it and being upset , Einstein said ( a little knowledge is a Dangerous thing ) , I put this on the end, -- add tools and its a catastrophe , it takes 3 things to make a combo , Time Money and TALENT. I sit back a listen to posts on here and shake my head , because unlike the Meatloaf Song , two out of Three , IS Bad, Shame your not closer , At My Shop if I cant Fix it , You Don't Pay , That includes Labor and Parts
 
Wow...I had the same problem with my pushrods when I built my engine! I was using oem ball and cup pushrods and classicinlines 1.6 adjustable stock type rocker arm assembly. I am running a solid lifter cam and couldn't understand why my lifters were so noisy...moments after I would adjust them. It's because the pushrods were not seating properly and it was wearing a groove in the ball of the adjuster. :banghead: Apparently the oem pushrods is not the way to go with the aftermarket rocker assembly. I got aftermarket pushrods and replacement rocker arm adjusters from Mike's supplier and that fixed the problem. What a relief that was!!

Now for the ignition issue you are having...if you can afford it I would just go with classicinlines DUI distributor and be done with it...best bolt on upgrade I ever made. :beer:
 
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